Hi, dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast, back with a new interview episode for you.
Our guest today is the once-in-a-generation ballet star Natalia Osipova. The Russian ballerina began her career at the Bolshoi Ballet, has guested at major companies all over the world, including American Ballet Theatre, and since 2013 has been a principal at The Royal Ballet. She is an incredibly vibrant presence onstage—truly never more alive than when she is performing—and has become one of the foremost interpreters of ballet’s big ballerina roles, Giselle in particular.
But Osipova’s curiosity extends well beyond the old ballet canon. Over the past few years she’s been striking out on her own, curating collaborative programs that feature both classical and more contemporary works. Osipova recently married dancer Jason Kittelberger, an alum of Cedar Lake Contemporary Ballet, and she says he has helped further broaden her dance horizons.
This month—for one night only, actually, on January 21st—Osipova’s company Bloom Dance Project will present an eclectic repertory program, “Force of Nature,” at New York City Center. And a percentage of the show’s proceeds will be donated to the Ukrainian relief effort. Osipova spoke with great candor about how she constructed this program, and her evolving feelings on the responsibilities of artists during wartime.
Just a note before we begin: Natalia was gracious enough to conduct this interview in English, since her English is much better than my Russian. But there were a couple of points where Jason helped translate a bit—I think you’ll hear her talk to him at one point—so, thank you to Jason for that assistance. There’s also a complete transcript of this interview, with a few clarifying notes in it, available on our website at thedanceedit.com/podcast.
Here is Natalia.
[pause]
Margaret Fuhrer:
Natalia, hi, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Natalia Osipova:
Hello, thank you.
Margaret Fuhrer:
We are talking right now because you’re about to have the US premiere of your program Force of Nature at New York City Center, and it has been a while since you performed in New York. When was the last time you danced here?
Natalia Osipova:
It’s actually a long time I’m not dance in New York. Maybe last time, it would be three, four years ago. It’s before pandemic. I remember it’s to be in my show with Sadler’s Wells, I dance in City Center. It’s to be program with name Pure Dance. It’s mix for contemporary work and classical work together. Yeah, and I think “I’m not dance anymore, I’m so sad.” Actually, I’m thinking, “Oh, that’s nice, come back again soon in New York,” because I really love New York and American audience, and so sad I can’t dance more.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well, an early welcome back.
Natalia Osipova:
Thank you.
Margaret Fuhrer:
The title of the program, Force of Nature, is also the name of a recent documentary about you.
Natalia Osipova:
Yes.
Margaret Fuhrer:
What is the story behind that title? What does it capture about you as an artist?
Natalia Osipova:
I think I never think about me like that, but I always listen this one, “Oh, she is like force of nature. Oh, Natasha. Oh my God, you know what she can do on stage? We never know what she can do on stage.” It’s a lot of people around me. Because [when I was] young, I really have a lot of energy that I can’t control. I remember I [was] 18, 19, I can’t control myself because I am to be too emotional. I have so many energy, so strong, and I don’t know how use this energy.
Now, I’m much less force of nature because I am older, I’m smarter, and I’m on stage 20 years almost. 18? Yeah, 18. And I think it’s that what people always say about me. Yeah, that’s like my partners, because I listen a lot to my partners—”Natasha, please do it on stage how we rehearsing. Please, not do it again something you super improvising.” You understand what I mean?
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm.
Natalia Osipova:
Yes, I think it’s because I have a little bit crazy energy and sometimes on stage, I don’t know, I can’t control this one. It’s just my artistic nature.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, yeah. It feels like you make weather when you’re on stage. You change the whole atmosphere.
Natalia Osipova:
Sometimes, sometimes, yes. [laughter]
Margaret Fuhrer:
A repertory program of your own like this one—and you have done this before, as you were saying, like Pure Dance, mounting your own production—what attracts you to that format as an artist? What does it offer that maybe you don’t get from your work with larger ballet companies?
Natalia Osipova:
I work actually through my career with big, large ballet companies, first Bolshoi, I dance a lot with American Ballet Theatre. I dance just so many company now, almost nine years I’m in Royal. And actually, it’s a really interesting career because I’m to be with really, really different company, with really different style, and it’s always need to work a lot. Because you can’t be coming in Covent Garden, go dance MacMillan and Ashton and look completely not in style. It’s really hard for me, but at the same, really interesting because you always learn something new. Because I always think, “Give something new, come on,” because I learn, I feel I’m exciting and I still am alive, you know?
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm.
Natalia Osipova:
Because I never want for me career, I just stay one company, do it 30 years just one repertoire, five classical ballet, like Don Quixote, Swan Lake, and Sleeping Beauty, done, for life. But for some people, this is amazing. Because some people just say, Natasha, classical ballet, you can grow in each time this role. And I really respect dancer who do it. That’s more working like Russian company. But for me, I am completely different, and I just always want new, always want to try different style, always try something, do it dramatical, drama, theatrical, contemporary. And I think if I have a next life, maybe I try more like flamenco.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Flamenco?
Natalia Osipova:
Everything, yes! And this is program for New York City Center. It’s just about me, about my different phases in dance. Because I dance like English repertoire, like Manon, and I do [for the] first time Ashton piece, Five Brahms [Waltzes in the Manner of Isadora Duncan], which he creation for Lynn Seymour. It’s really special for me. There’s to be piece by Alexei Ratmansky that he created for me and David Hallberg, there’s to be of course ballets like Don Quixote, and to be my new contemporary work with my husband, Jason Kittelberger, and work by Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui, I really love work with this choreographer. It’s not gala concert, it’s really program about me, about who I am now, with how I am dancing with my best partners.
Margaret Fuhrer:
So, it’s a portrait of you on stage.
Natalia Osipova:
Yeah, for different phases. It’s like say, yeah, I dance Don Quixote well, many years, but it’s not just one my phase that I can just like, oh, do it like Don Quixote. I can to be really feminine, and do it like Manon. That’s what I learn, British character. And I can be like dramatical and free, like dance Ashton pieces, Isadora Duncan. I can work with contemporary and be different, look completely different than classical prima ballerina. At the same moment, yeah, it’s there neoclassical, dramatical, contemporary classical work.
And I finish with my interpretation Dying Swan, because for me this is iconic piece. Because I think it’s for each dancer, it’s like legend, this role, because you can creation this version completely how you want. Because Fokine, he creation for Anna Pavlova, it’s not just choreography. It’s just like, you can dance completely different. You can to be really lyrical, you can to be really strong and fighting for your life. That’s really, for me, important, because this is version I am creation for myself and for this program, I think it’s be right ending.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And over the years you’ve collaborated a lot with your romantic partners, like you were saying you and your husband Jason have worked together extensively, and on this program you have the piece Ashes that you choreographed together. What is especially fulfilling and what is especially challenging about that kind of collaboration?
Natalia Osipova:
With Jason, I think it’s really different world. Yes, I’m ballerina, he’s contemporary dancer and choreographer, and before I met with him, I not really know this work, really. And I think some ballet dancer and company don’t know that [well] choreographic work, contemporary work. You know, me too. It’s for me really interesting and new, and for him too. And we have a really amazing connection together, artistically connection, and I’m really inspired about how he is moving, how he is dance, because it’s completely different philosophy about dancing. And I think he give me a lot, I give him a lot, and I feel if we together in studio and try creation, it’s always interesting experience. That’s really important for dance.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And even when the partnership is only romantic on stage, there often seems to be a really great depth of feeling between you and your dance partners. David Hallberg, you’ve mentioned, with whom you have this beautiful partnership, he recently said in an interview that, “When we were onstage, it was like I had found true love. We did many roles together and we were in love with each other and still are today.” Do you need that kind of personal connection to create the onstage connection?
Natalia Osipova:
Yeah, because have connection on stage, that’s really special. It’s feeling like you can have second life, you know? You can go on stage and fall in love somebody, to have one of the best moments in your life actually, if you have connection on stage. But I really missing this one, because it’s not a lot. I dance with a lot of partner, I have a lot of partner, but I can say maybe one, two, three who is to be exactly my partner. It’s really important for me. And I’m really, really sad David finished his career, but I’m really happy for him. He’s now amazing director. But it’s very sad for me because that’s what I have with him on stage. It’s not repeat, I’m sure.
But I have Jason, but we dance different. With us, partnership more physicality, more like between man and woman, it’s really strong, physicality connection. And for ballet stage, it’s always harder, because you never know how it’s working, this one. It’s like first fall in love: You never know why you love this person, you just love this person. And the same on stage with your partner. With somebody you have completely amazing charisma and connection with, but one who used to be your best friend, you go on stage with him and we have nothing. Nothing! [laughter] But we never know. I don’t know how it’s working. I don’t know.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, it’s all chemistry experiments.
Natalia Osipova:
Chemistry, yes. You cannot say why, it’s just like that.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. When you explore contemporary dance, as you’ve been doing more frequently since meeting Jason, does it feel like you are sort of shedding your ballerina skin and finding something different underneath? Or is it more like building and layering on top of that ballerina self?
Natalia Osipova:
I always want to try [contemporary] dance, but it’s…before I’m try, I think I do it really well and nice and I’m understand, but it’s not true. You need a lot of change and understanding you technical, you body. Because ballet, it’s really light. We always jump and can fly. Contemporary dancer, it’s absolutely connection with floor. You need to be really grounded. And ballet dancer look too light, too light for contemporary dance, and you immediately see this, yes? And the same, like completely different chest, arms, body working, working for your physicality, working for choreographic, and understand his style working. It’s a big job and if you won’t do it this well, you need working.
I do it…I never say, “Oh I’m do it amazing, contemporary dance.” No, but I try. In some moment, I do it well. Some, maybe. I continue working, I can do it better and better and better. But now I can say yes, I do so much better than two, three years ago. Two, three years ago, I don’t know how to fall on floor. It’s to be funny—like oh my God, I don’t know, I fell on floor. And I will have a lot of injury with my knee, hips. And now, yes, I do it much better and I understand so much better, and I really enjoy doing this one.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Have your ventures into contemporary dance changed your approach to classical ballet at all?
Natalia Osipova:
I don’t know. Because yeah, of course, it’s some moment in your arms and your neck because you know you can be more, not free, but you can to understand your body more, you more understand how it’s moving. And some moment you…For me, it’s really beautiful. I know some people think it’s horrible, they say we can’t do it this way, we like try to kill classical dance, and I listen so many critical—like, “We don’t need Isadora Duncan around classical ballet.” But I love it. If you do it so well and if you understand your body, if you give so much more color for your role, why not? Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Some of the proceeds from Force of Nature are going to the Ukrainian relief effort.
Natalia Osipova:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Can you talk a little about your feelings about the invasion of Ukraine and about what is happening in Russia right now?
Natalia Osipova:
It’s hard for me talking because first, my parents live in Russia now, yes, and for my family live in Russia and what it’s inside in country now, it’s really scary. And what I can to say, I feel this is war and think it’s absolutely, absolutely, absolutely horrible. This is really painful. I don’t know, it’s like doesn’t matter what I’m say, and it’s not possible to watch, not possible to listen. You just here, just don’t know what to do. It’s absolutely horrible and I don’t know what we can to do it. I can try help, support. And at the same moment, I’m Russian dancer. Yes, it’s like this is…It’s more harder for me in the same moment. You want to help but you don’t know how. But it’s like just something little, what I can to do it. And it’s really hard that, talking really open, because your parents and your family live there. Yeah, you understand? If I just say—so many people now sit in prison just talking something, or have different opinion. And you just scared not for yourself, you’re scared for your family.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, I understand. And of course, I don’t want you to say anything that endangers your family in Russia.
Natalia Osipova:
Yeah, like at the same moment, in Force of Nature, it’s to be fantastic Ukrainian pianist, Sasha Grynyuk, he play with us this evening, that’s really honor for me.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. I guess more generally then, talking about an artist’s role during a time of war—because you gave an interview, I think last March, where you said you didn’t really want to be political. Have your feelings about that changed at all?
Natalia Osipova:
Of course, we say we don’t want to be political. But political coming with this life now, yes? You can’t don’t care about what Russia do inside in Ukraine. You can’t don’t care, because you see every news, every day, and you can’t just close eyes for this one. And political there, it just, people die, child die. People sit now in Ukraine without light, without water, can’t do it. It’s like, how you can say now political, I’m not interested? And yes, and my completely just one vision is this is absolutely, absolutely horrible.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Okay. Coming back now to your life on stage. You are known for performing with, as you’ve said, what looks what’s just complete freedom, which is thrilling to watch—sometimes almost a little scary to watch. How do you keep finding that kind of spontaneity in works that you’ve now performed many, many times? For example, the Don Quixote pas de deux, which you’re going to be doing on the Force of Nature program—how do you keep it fresh and new?
Natalia Osipova:
I actually for really long time not dance Don Quixote. Because after Bolshoi, I do it many couple times in Royal, and I’m just done with this repertoire, like Flames of Paris, Corsaire, Bolshoi really like fireworks, bravura. I do it, I just done, I want to learn and do it different. But at the same moment, some roles, like Giselle, yes, I dance all my life because…I don’t know, it just like a role and each time you come back for this role, you feel completely different, completely different feeling. And you can dance completely different, you can feel completely different. But now I dance Giselle two months ago, and six months ago, and last time I’m to be on stage, I’m feel something like I need to stop, maybe for a year not dance, because I start to feel like I can’t creation something special now.
You know, you understand? Why I don’t like dance the same role, because you always want to do it something special. It’s not to be just—even if I just danced it, I want to dance like I will never dance it again. And that’s what I want to say. I’m not dance now the same role many times. I’m changed this one and I now try…I not dance a lot. I now dance maybe two, three show, four. Before, I dance for 15, 10. Now, I dance less, but I try [to make it] so special.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Do you think there might ever be a day when you would say, “I’m done dancing Giselle“? Or do you think a work like that will always speak to your heart?
Natalia Osipova:
I don’t know, it’s hard. I’m really intuition person. I can’t sometimes say how I do it and how I feel. I just really feeling like…Me, it’s like you see me, but I have a different person inside me, and I always like conversation with this person. People, they young, say like, “Oh, I want to be like Monica Bellucci, actress.” But I always really have a lot of question for myself, person who I am in life. But I love myself on stage because I really open, really natural. It’s always like person who I want to be. But in life, I’m different—that’s so sad for me, always! [laughter]
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, yeah, finding your truest self on stage.
As an international star, you’re now part of a lineage of renowned ballerinas that stretches back into the past. But being a ballet star today is very different than it used to be. How has the figure, the idea of the ballerina changed over time?
Natalia Osipova:
I don’t know. I think art and dancing, it’s always to be…Now of course, it’s technical, really change technical. It’s like of course, change shoes, ballerina can do [more]. But the same moment, I’m really sad about this one because my absolutely favorite dancers, it’s older generation, like Natasha Makarova, Maya Plisetskaya, people who have unique artistic, like—people who can talk with their body, not do, like, 25 pirouette. Because now, I see video and just Instagram, you just watched 25 pirouette… In head, you feeling like people can do everything, everything. It’s possible everything. Stay 25 hours en pointe, you know? [laughter] That’s people can do it everything. But it’s for me, with old generation have something special. This is people can talkwith their body, people can talk with just one pose, how you make. I really miss this period.
But of course, we always want to do it better, like technique, it’s progress. But I think it’s new generation need to think they cannot lose artistically side. Because it’s soul. This is like what give … We not gymnastic, we art. That’s why it’s art, because it’s always your heart, your soul. You like a feeling, musicality, it’s need to be there. It just technical, it’s great, but it’s never to be like gymnastic. Because I see so many Instagram young dancer, just super excited about how high you leg, how you turn out, how many…you understand? People just working like circus, like gymnastic. Yes, that’s what I want to say, that it’s important but it’s artistically side important too. It’s never forget about role, about your soul, about your artistically side.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And you’re leading right into my next question because the rise of social media has definitely altered not just—well, it has certainly altered ballet and ballet dancers, but also people’s relationships, the public’s relationships with ballet dancers. I actually just saw the other day, did you know that you are viral on TikTok? Have you been on TikTok?
Natalia Osipova:
No, I never to be in TikTok. No, because I’m just coming in Instagram two years ago because people say, “Natasha, please do it. We want to know where date you show.” I’m never to be on Instagram because I’m really, how say? Really sensitive person. If I saw bad comment or something, it’s toxic atmosphere. I can’t. It’s hard. No TikTok for me, no.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well, somebody else posted a video of about the modifications you make to your pointe shoes. There is a video of one of your shoes where you’d cut a hole for your pinky toe.
Natalia Osipova:
Oh! [laughter]
Margaret Fuhrer:
But people are obsessed with this! And I was thinking it felt similar to the old stories about fans cooking and eating ballerinas’ pointe` shoes, you know?
Natalia Osipova:
Yes. [laughter]
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. I mean you’ve essentially already started talking about this, but how do you think social media has changed the way that audiences relate to ballet dancers?
Natalia Osipova:
Oh, it’s great in some moment, I think. It’s sometimes, it’s like…You can to be more close with artists, you can more understand how people prepare, how people live. But again, it’s about—I don’t like people to be close with me. I don’t need it. But the same moment, I always sit on Instagram, watch dancer. It’s really interesting, just like I know it’s to something premiere in New York or Canada or France, and next day, you can to watch on Instagram video, how people dance. But I just want to say that’s different. You can have your opinion, but I always want to dance and ballet, it’s theater work. You need to go in theater and watch show live, because it’s different energy, different feeling. And I really don’t like so many people have opinion, just watch 30 seconds video and do that opinion.
You know how people say “Instagram choreography” or “Instagram dancer”? Because people just recording 15 seconds video of some best moment, and start to be super popular. But for me, my opinion, in stage and creation on stage, big show for one hour, so not five seconds, it’s completely most harder, different work. The same for dancers: You can do it on video everything, but go on stage for two hours and say who you are. That’s different.
But the same moment, I really like it that I can watch live what is the world dance, what people do over there, which choreography there. And sometimes, I watch—because I really love new work, new choreography—and sometimes, I just sit on Instagram and try to see who is creation. And sometimes, you see, “Wow, that’s interesting, maybe I need to work with this guy and write him.” No, I think that it’s actually good. It’s good, yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, all different ways of engaging with artists. Just hopefully, ways that lead people to the stage and just seeing people on stage.
Natalia Osipova:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, in the same moment it’s like I sure that it’s interesting for some people on Instagram, so maybe more people want to go in theater say, “Oh wow, oh she’s amazing. It look amazing. Come on, go watch her in theater.” It’s the same moment good, too.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. I’ll close with a big question, which is: What challenges remain for you as an artist?
Natalia Osipova:
What challenge for me dance? Why I’m dance?
Margaret Fuhrer:
What’s next for you? What’s on your horizon? You’ve done so much, but what’s still to be done?
Natalia Osipova:
Oh, what’s next for me? Yes. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Because I’m so sorry, I’m like—I understand, yeah, thank you, Jason—because I’m sometimes a little bit [confused], with language, because [English is] not my first language, and I actually try to learn, it’s to be so hard with me. Because I work five years in ABT, I’m nine years there, and actually my English still so bad. And I just like, good, because I finally met with Jason, and Jason is American, and I don’t have choice—I need to know English! [laughter]
No, for me now it’s my company, because we open a company, Bloom Dance Project, and that is to be now producer and dance company for me. And for future, I think it’s to be bigger and bigger company. But I never have super vision to be director or something for big [traditional ballet] company. I want something crazy, like really interesting company with absolutely different choreographic and style. It’s not so big that we can’t communication. I like producing, and I like do it a lot of different work. I think that’s, for me, my future, to have my company and to be artistic director there and do it so many projects with dance and art. And I really like synthesis between dramatical theater and dance, like music artist and dancer, or something like that, that’s not to be just typical classical ballet or dance. It’s the different art start to live together.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well Natalia, thank you so much for making the time today.
Natalia Osipova:
Thank you. Thank you.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And looking forward to seeing you on stage in New York very soon.
Natalia Osipova:
Lovely to see you, and thank you for question.
[pause]
A big thanks again to Natalia. Force of Nature will be at New York City Center for one night only, January 21st. We have a link in the show notes with more information about the program, plus a link to Osipova’s Instagram account—she may be a reluctant Instagram adopter, but she’s definitely worth a follow.
And thanks to all of you for listening. We’ll be back next Thursday with a headline rundown episode, recapping all the top dance news stories. Until then, keep learning, keep advocating, and keep dancing.