Hi again, dance friends. It’s Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. And this week, we’ve got a fantastic double interview pod for you all.
Our guests are Ashton Edwards and Zsilas Michael Hughes, two young members of Pacific Northwest Ballet’s corps. If you follow either Ashton or Zsilas on Instagram, then you know how much these two love each other. They have been really good friends since they were students at the company’s school; they were members of the same apprentice class, and now they’re also roommates. They have helped each other navigate the challenges of being a young professional ballet dancer, of starting a ballet career.
Ashton and Zsilas say that they also connected because they are both queer nonbinary artists of color. They are helping Pacific Northwest Ballet rethink its approach to gender in technique and casting and its culture as a whole. That is really hard work. It’s also really exciting work. As you’ll hear, the two of them are constantly inspired and uplifted—and reduced to tears of laughter—by each other.
Here are Ashton and Zsilas.
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Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi Ashton, hi Zsilas! Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Ashton Edwards:
Hello. Thank you for having us.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Thank you so kindly.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And actually, before we get into it, would you mind each briefly just saying hello and your name, so listeners can put names to voices?
Ashton Edwards:
Hi, this is Ashton. So happy to be here.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Hi, this is Zsilas and I’m just honored to be in the room with this lovely human being next to me.
Margaret Fuhrer:
So the past few years for you both have been extraordinary and extraordinarily stressful, but it’s been really beautiful to see the two of you support each other, really be there for each other through everything. Can we start by talking about how you first got to know each other, and why you connected in such a deep way?
Ashton Edwards:
I think we met during the pandemic as students. We were all separated on our Zoom screens, and so we had a little introduction through Zoom and we figured out we were both originally from Flint and had a lot more in common after that. And so that kind of sparked the friendship. And then as we got to know each other, we finally met in person and our past kept aligning. We grew closer and closer and closer. So yeah, the apprenticeship year, that big life change, we were each other’s support systems. And from there our bond just grew. I don’t know, what do you think?
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Yeah, spot on. Yes. There was an introduction we had over Zoom with all the students who were in the summer course at PNB, and we were just going around saying where we’re from and Ashton goes, “oh, I’m from Flint, Michigan.” And I go, “what? There’s no way.” I’ve never met another person from Flint, Michigan, other than my family, let alone another Black queer person. And it was just wonderful to have such a human connection. And it’s just funny because I can’t tell you what the pinpoint moment was that Ashton and I just became as close as we are, it just it happened.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Magic. So joining the company as part of the same apprentice class—what did it mean to have each other to lean on as you were both at the same time navigating essentially uncharted ballet territory, how to be a professional nonbinary ballet dancer?
Ashton Edwards:
I mean, that introduction was so different for the both of us that we needed different things, but luckily we’ve always just been able to fill in those holes. We kind of know exactly what the other person needs in any moment. And so that year with every up and down, they were there for me and I tried to be there for them as best as I could. Because I mean, being a professional dancer alone, it’s difficult and tricky and for a young person, it’s so emotional to take on a career like this at an age we do in our maturity. And so you need a support system for that simple fact. And then also being nonbinary and looking for someone to understand those struggles and those little microaggressions every day, to have someone to talk to about, to talk to and they really understand, it was everything I needed.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Yes, definitely. I think something that so many people in the world lack is having someone that they can talk to that it’s just as relatable. We relate to so many idols and celebrities and things like that, but I am able to relate to Ashton in a way that so many others cannot. And I have the blessing of being able to talk to them every day, and having that personal outlet for both of us is so securing and it is so safe. It is such a beautiful thing to have someone you can relate to and someone that appreciates who you are, appreciates what you’re going through and respects it. And also in that moment, giving you the love and support that you need to go throughout the day and say, you know what? It’s hard right now, but tomorrow there’s going to be some sunshine somewhere in you. And if it’s not in you, look at me. And we’re each other’s sunshine and we try to make each other smile throughout the dark moments and we celebrate the great moments because there are so many.
And just having that day-to-day relationship with a person, a human being, someone that you truly connect with, it’s a true blessing.
Ashton Edwards:
Don’t make me cry! I love you.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Stop it. No. I’ve got to get it together.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Ballet is this world where dancers are essentially forced to put themselves in gender boxes all the time. This is a very personal question, so only go as far as you’re willing to go, but how did your respective journeys to coming out as nonbinary sort of intersect with your ballet journeys?
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
When I got into the company, it was definitely at that same time where I was truly exploring the fullness of who I saw myself to be. And in that exploration, the influence of ballet was definitely affectatious to my day-to-day life. There was a box I was put in to be a male dancer, to be masculine and strong and the lifter and all of these things that I am capable of and I can do well. But when hyper-exposed to it and hyper-analyzed in this particular box, it was hard for me to find myself in my jeans and T-shirt. It became more challenging to find the difference between who I was inside the studio and outside of the studio. So I felt that I had to be a man at all times. I had to be this prince. I had to be this particular individual while living my life in order to be successful at work.
And once I got that mentality out of my head, there was a blossoming effect and I felt that I grew as a non-binary individual, understanding the divinity with having both femininity and masculinity and those qualities that mold so beautifully together, having that power allowed me to decipher who Zsilas was outside of the studio and how I could bring my full self to work and also put on my character hat inside of the studio. It took a very long time and it was a very hard challenge. And there were a lot of discussions that were had and there were a lot of feelings that were had and a lot of emotional situations that happened, but we grew in that strength because those experiences taught us our power.
We were able to acknowledge, okay, who am I? What do I represent when I’m looking in the mirror? What is comfortable when I’m sitting down at home eating dinner and I’m just living my life? What feels comfortable to me? And then when I get to work, it’s, okay, what do I need to do to get my job done? I don’t know if that kind of touches with Ashton, but that’s just what being a nonbinary dancer in the ballet world has really taught me thus far.
Ashton Edwards:
I think for me to even come out as a effeminate person in general, as a gay man, happened a lot later in life, or a bit later in life for me, that I finally got to explore my femininity—when I moved to Seattle, but before I got into the company. And so that challenge in my life of learning to open up and finding that freedom to explore—I mean, we had COVID, so I had so much time to myself to really learn myself and who I am, and so I got to open up in that way and explore my gender expression on my own, in my own little dance space. I was still a student. I mean, that was terrifying, not knowing what my career would look like because of my gender expression, but for the first time in my life I felt that was more important, my own gender expression and finding my own happiness within myself and coming to a decision not based on anyone else’s judgment.
And so I got to find myself on my own. And then luckily my career got to reflect a lot of it, a lot of how I feel and express. I mean, I think there’s still more of my gender identity that I’d like to see the stage, but what’s happened so far, it’s definitely been what I’ve been trying to let out for so many years.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, it seems like a process of evolution that’s continual, that’s ongoing.
Ashton Edwards:
Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Gender, especially when you’ve been taught that there are only two and everything’s so binary and everything has rules—when you’ve been taught rules, when you find freedom, the world seems endless now, and all the opportunities and boundaries are just, they’re gone. And so it’s exciting every day, getting to be someone new and learn myself a little more. But I’m still really young. And so I think that also goes into play. I’m learning so much about myself every day, and only now am I getting to really truly explore. So every day is an exploration.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And you have each had really different journeys here, as you were saying before, Ashton, but yeah, one of the ways you’ve been able to do some of that exploring at PNB a little bit is in terms of casting. And I was wondering if you could each speak a little to how you have both navigated that process with Peter Boal and with the rest of the artistic team.
Ashton Edwards:
I mean, yeah, we still have very different experiences. I feel I was hired and thrown into one box, and you were thrown into another. I have performed solely pointe roles, and it’s of course been navigating what I’m comfortable with, which has been an open discussion, but there hasn’t been really many opportunities for me to find the in between. You can either be one or the other. And so I’ve been the other, and Zsilas has been pushed into the original box, and so it’s been a conversation for sure. What do you think? Where is that middle box? How do we get there?
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Artistic is great at always providing a space where we can have a conversation. We just have a lot more work to do and it just takes time.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I guess maybe then talking in a more sort of hypothetical sense about that middle box, that middle space, how you would envision it. Can you talk a little about in your ideal environment, or, as you are continuing to figure out what that might look like—what it might look like?
Ashton Edwards:
Well, we do a lot of work that’s been done. The boxes are already there, and so we fill in those holes, and that’s great, to rejuvenate history and do these roles again and do them a little different. Candy Cane and Dewdrop were definitely an opportunity for me to put my own queer flair on things, which was really fun. But I’m excited for the day when it comes to new work, because we always need to make new work, where we find that middle ground being open in a choreographic setting to new opportunities, new things, new ways of partnering and jumping and exploring movement and working with individuals and getting to know their strengths and weaknesses. I think that’s our biggest challenge, is not exploring individuals to their full capacity. I think people see us and off of sight, they go, “That’s what you’re good at and that’s what you do.” Instead of kind of working a little deeper and just trying things, throwing movement out there and seeing what happens.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Looking at you as people, instead of, a feminine person, a masculine person.
Ashton Edwards:
Yeah, I feel, yeah, I’m definitely judged by the cover of my book, I guess.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Absolutely. It takes a village. What is wonderful is that when we’re finding the middle box, Ashton and I are able to put certain things in there, put certain elements, and we’re finding out what that box, middle box, looks like for both of us. And it’s not a box, it’s just a pool of opportunities. And what’s lovely about that is it doesn’t just go for nonbinary dancers. It goes for everyone.
Ashton Edwards:
Yes.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Right.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
When we do casting, we go based on capability. We go based on performance and what we see to be the next thing. And personally, I always am pushing for greater, always pushing for the next challenge. I’m hungry for learning and opportunities, and I’m hungry to learn from mistakes and falling. And that’s just how you grow and develop, not only as an artist, but as a human being.
And sometimes when you’re driving for things that much and you’re reaching for goals, it’s seen as well, it’s too much or we’re not ready yet, or it takes time. And sometimes that’s disappointing. So I’m just hoping to always be in the room and having a conversation with those people who can help make those changes to say, okay, this is what we want to create in this pool. This is what we want to put in it. These are the elements, these are the minerals and rocks that we want to put at the bottom, and this is how we want to show the true progression of ballet.
Pacific Northwest Ballet is at the forefront of progression. This is what it will look like in the future, just opportunities for everyone and showing the beautiful diversity that this company’s growing into. It is truly wonderful to see all those talented artists, and it’ll be even more beautiful to see them all showcased in such a different unique way, because each individual is amazing and talented in this company—nonbinary, straight, gay, Black, white, Asian, it’s a beautiful pool of love and talent, and that’s what we just hope to showcase not only within ourselves but around the community with us.
Ashton Edwards:
Yeah, the range, the incredible range of skills in each individual.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Absolutely.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. I guess—and I’m loving this metaphor of the pool instead of the box. It’s a pool, and as that pool continues to sort of deepen and fill in—slowly, but it’s starting to—what excites you about that? It creates possibilities for all performers in the company, as you were saying, not just for nonbinary performers, and it does seem like getting rid of the walls of the box opens up a lot of really interesting artistic opportunities.
Ashton Edwards:
For me, what has been seen in ballet as feminine women of the corps, silent, quiet people—I am just so excited to one day see them jump into incredible roles where they get to be more dominant and lead ballets instead of being the damsel in distress. I’m surrounded by so many strong women every day that inspire me so much. I can’t wait to see the art they create and the hope they give other women to be so strong and so themselves and so full. And they fill up the space. They really do. I’m excited to see that someday. I mean, because simply with the power of jump the women have in our company, they can eat up a stage. I’m just excited to see that power realized.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
As I continue to take class at the company, as I continue to rehearse here, I can look around the room and find something to be inspired by from each individual. And that’s something that’s lovely in this exploration of the pool, because if I’m able to find something inspirational from every individual in the room, it gives me this sense of empowerment to work harder and be somehow fulfilled in this way that’s indescribable. And to be able to share that on stage is indescribable. It is because everyone pushes me to be greater. And Ashton makes me think about things that I don’t even understand sometimes. Just the intricacies of the work we do, the intricacies of the people we are, it’s just wonderful to feed off of the room.
Ashton Edwards:
I think also when you see people perform authentically, it’s when you see their best art, their best product that they can put out into the world. And that’s all I would ever want to see on stage, this genuine passion for what you do and the true artist on stage.
Margaret Fuhrer:
When have you each felt most yourselves on stage? What are the moments that have felt most authentic to you so far?
Ashton Edwards:
I mean, I think I’ve had a few moments, because… [laughter] We laugh because we know when we see it in the other person, “oh, she’s having fun”. Like “oh, she’s living.” And so I think we found those moments in our binary roles being ourselves in those roles. And so I think Dewdrop of course was just like a moment. I mean, yeah, I go back to that place in my head where I’m little Ashton and I don’t have a gender and there’s actually no audience. I’m in my kitchen at home and I’m dancing for the love of dance. And so finally fulfilling that dream on stage, I got to just heal that inner child moment. And it was next level happiness, joy.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
I had the best time in Dwight Rhoden’s new work that was choreographed here on the Pacific Northwest Ballet, Catching Feelings. It was very familiar to me because I had done a little bit of training with Complexions Contemporary Ballet under Desmond Richardson and Dwight Rhoden. And having prior knowledge of that skillset and that texture of movement that Dwight choreographs in was really fun to bring that to the age I’m at now and being able to experience the things that I’ve learned about my body and the growth that I’ve had since I was 14 years old. And it’s been so fun to be so present on stage and to make choices. And yes, and Dwight Rhoden’s piece, I felt my most comfortable self, and I felt like my dancing didn’t need to be explained. And that’s very rare for me. As dancers, we often feel apologetic about certain moments and oh, I didn’t know that on stage, or, ugh.
But no matter what went wrong, no matter if I tumble to the ground or if I missed a step by, I know that when I got off stage, I felt whole and I felt comfortable. And that’s really amazing to have. And also another moment for me, I personally felt was my debut of Candy Cane. I just had so much fun on the stage and I really enjoyed it. It was really interesting because I was very sick the day before, but we got up and we made it happen. It was a minute and 19 seconds, and I just had a blast. So I think the time where I have the most fun on stage, it’s just personally the most fulfilling for me.
Ashton Edwards:
Standing in the wings with the bucket, ready to puke!
Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh gosh, that’s friendship. You were mentioning before that it takes a village, and we’ve touched on this—I’ve talked with both of you in other interviews a little bit about this, about how there has been sort of a community that’s developed among other gender nonconforming performers in ballet in particular. And many of these artists are artists of color—in fact, most of them are. Can you talk a little about how you have found community there, if you have?
Ashton Edwards:
I mean, there’s a rich history in queer, gender nonconforming people of color seeking refuge in each other, because it is not really accepted in our marginalized communities. And so in that we have things like ballroom and that rich history, and there’s just this unique level of how all those big oppression things intersect that we just all kind of understand. And so when you meet someone like, “Oh, you’ve been through what I’ve been through,” and you kind of understand the level of love and support you need. And so there’s a unique friendship that I always find in other queer people of color that I love. I mean, I’m here for the community. I love it.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Instagram is great.
Ashton Edwards:
It really is.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Instagram’s wonderful. I love her. She gets us together. And you can text and call and talk to anyone in the world just about and that’s so beautiful. But what’s really cool to me is there’s a very specific niche of people when you’re walking into a grocery store, you’re just walking down the street, that you make eye contact with and they say hi, or you give a nice smile to. Every single person in the world that just, there’s certain people that—hello, hi!—you’re always drawn to. And when I’m walking down the street, most of the time it is a queer person that says hi or hello to me. And I think that is the coolest thing about community for me. And that’s both in New York or when I’m walking in L.A. or even around Seattle. Sometimes. Not a lot.
But that’s really fun, to have a community like that and to be able to go shopping in Capitol Hill, and you see so many beautiful people with all types of fun makeup on or a fun costume. You see drag next door, there’s brunch happening. It’s beautiful to have that real life community, just as we have social media and that you can connect to different people from ballet companies and say, “oh, hello, I see what you’re doing. I’m so proud of you. This is beautiful. Let’s connect.” Those things do happen. And it’s so awesome and it’s so beautiful. But just my personal favorite is just the ones that happen closest to home.
Ashton Edwards:
Well said.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Here’s a question that’s an apology, too. And this is something that we also got into a little bit in our interviews last time we talked. You are both routinely asked to talk about things that are fundamentally nobody else’s business, and that no other dancers get asked about. All this stuff is so personal. So I want to apologize for the invasive nature of a lot of these questions. And the actual question here is, do you hope or do you see a point maybe in your career where gender in particular becomes just part of who you are instead of this thing on which every story must hinge?
Ashton Edwards:
I mean, I really hope so. Not to compare oppressions, but race and things—I really hope one day it’s normal. And I know our art form is very old and historic at a company like ours with such a rich history. But I really hope that that happens someday, and I can stop talking about how I express myself and…
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
How exceptional you are.
Ashton Edwards:
For being myself.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Courageous.
Ashton Edwards:
“You’re so brave.” I just want to be myself because it’s who I am, not because I’m brave for doing it. But I see that happening. I’ve been talking to a lot of young people and it’s cool to see people being queer and just knowing themselves that at very early ages because…you know, and I’m jealous as well! Getting to see a level three student in a leotard and tights. If I just had that option! Yeah, that’s why I think it’s going to be. What do you think?
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
I love mismatched socks. I love them because no one’s going to see them if you wear the right pants or shoes. And I say that because at some point I feel like certain things that we write down on the applications where we’re checking, oh, gender, oh, size, height—it’s just going to become underwear. It’s not necessary to be so visible to everyone. It doesn’t have to be the forefront of the topic. And personally for me, I would love to see the day where hopefully something is being said about the talent and the work that’s being done. I have never worked harder in my life. I give this my all. And I hope that the world sees the work that Ashton puts in, the work that Lesley Rausch puts in, the work that Malena Ani puts in, the work that the people of the company put in.
And we are just discussing the talent and the work and what’s beautiful about it. And I feel that sometimes when we add the aspect of what is kindly appreciated, known as bravery and such courage and strength it takes to be yourself—I think we have to get out of the mindset of where that is scary, that is a frightening thing for people to do, is just be themselves. And that’s just a point we need to get to. Because once we get there, there’s no need to discuss on why this man or woman or gender nonconforming or this person. It’s their name behind the work they’ve done. And that’s what’s being celebrated. I think it enhances the sense of humanity and community and love and just respect. I think if we all have a higher respect, that point will get here much sooner, much, much sooner.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And those kids in level three who are being able to wear leotards, they’re looking at you two and saying, oh, things feel less scary now.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
It’s really wonderful. Ashton and I continue to take classes with the school and it’s really fun to just see how things are changing and how things are evolving and the response to this growth. And you see the next generation on board with it. It’s really beautiful. And also we get little notes from them all the time and they’re so sweet and they respect pronouns and they have the understanding of what progression looks like and what moving forward is for us. It’s just wonderful to see that the upcoming generations are understanding and accepting and loving it just as much as we are. And it’s not seen as some frightening thing for people to just be you.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I want to come back to the two of you and your friendship, because “fun” is a word that kept coming up in this conversation, and you really feel that even just in your social media posts together, there’s clearly so much joy when you’re with each other. Can you talk a little about how you bring each other joy? I mean, maybe even outside of ballet, when you’re not in ballet mode?
Ashton Edwards:
You know that one person, where they just know? There’s so many inside jokes. It’s not one word because you don’t have to say anything. I just look at you and I know what you’re thinking. And so those small moments, any day, at any time… Sometimes—oh, because we also live together, and so sometimes it’s when we first wake up. Those are my favorite days when we wake up laughing, and you don’t say anything but “Girl, I see you.” It’s fun. We have a blast together.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
We just get each other. There’s such a mutual understanding and such a high respect that, like Ashton says, there’s not much communication verbally that has to happen to understand where the other person’s at. And in that moment you connect and you find a laugh and that’s what keeps you going. And I mean, it’s just always the best time. I can’t imagine another person I would work with, live with, and hang out with all the time and not get sick of them. It’s just because it’s always something new, something fun we’re discovering and it’s…
Ashton Edwards:
Or something really old! Like something that we think about from our childhood that we relate on and we bring it back and it’s just like, “Oh, girl, I forgot I even experienced that.” But you bring it up in me and it’s hilarious, or it’s emotional. It’s…
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
We’ve pretty much been friends for 40 years.
Ashton Edwards:
Yeah, basically since birth basically. And then back. Yeah. But it’s so crazy how our souls align, I think.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well that’s kind of a beautiful place to end, I think. Thank you both so much for coming on and being willing to discuss stuff that’s well outside conventional dance interview fare. I really appreciate that. And merde for Giselle, I know you have Giselle coming up, so, merde!
Ashton Edwards:
Thank you so much.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
Thank you.
Ashton Edwards:
I’m ready to be a wili.
Zsilas Michael Hughes:
And I’m going to go hunt. [laughter]
[pause]
Thanks again to Ashton and Zsilas, who, yes, will be performing in Giselle with PNB from February 3rd to 12th. We’ve got information about that program and about the company’s other upcoming programs in the show notes. And we also have links to Ashton and Zsilas’ social accounts—which, just, 10/10, no notes on their whole social presence, they are such great follows.
And thanks to all of you, as always, for listening. Come back next Thursday for a new headline rundown episode, talking through the week’s top dance news stories. Until then, keep learning, keep advocating, and keep dancing.