Hi, dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. Welcome to The Dance Edit Extra!

This episode we have a dance artist who has seen the dance world from so many different perspectives. You probably first got to know Ebony Williams as one of Beyoncé’s “Single Ladies” dancers. She had a beautiful many-year career as a performer with Cedar Lake Contemporary Ballet. She’s worked on a multitude of commercial projects. She was an associate choreographer for the film In the Heights and for the Broadway production Jagged Little Pill.

Now she’s taking on a new kind of challenge: her first opera. Ebony is choreographing Unholy Wars, conceived by the tenor Karim Sulayman and directed by Kevin Newbury, which will premiere as part of the Spoleto Festival next month. This is a many-layered production. It takes musical selections from the early Baroque period and pieces them together to create a story about the Crusades, but told from an Arab American point of view—a way of examining racial inequities and the Western opera canon’s relationship to the Middle East. Ebony’s perspective as a Black dance artist is crucial to its storytelling.

Before we get to interview, a quick glossary. About 18 minutes into the conversation, Ebony talks about the movement signatures she created for each of the opera’s performers, and just so you know who they are: when she refers to Taylor, that’s the bass-baritone John Taylor Ward; Raha is the soprano Raha Mirzadegan; and Coral is the dancer and associate choreographer Coral Dolphin.

OK. Without further ado: Here’s Ebony.

[pause]

Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi, Ebony, thank you so much for joining me on The Dance Edit Extra today.

Ebony Williams:
Hi!

Margaret Fuhrer:
We’re officially talking today because you’re in the middle of a new kind of adventure. You’re choreographing your first opera. I’m very excited to hear all about Unholy Wars, but actually before we get into that, I want to go back in time a little bit, or a lot of bit really. Because—we were talking about this before we started recording: The last time we spoke at length was in 2009 for your Dance Spirit cover story, when you were both a “Single Lady” and a member of Cedar Lake Contemporary Ballet, which, RIP.

Ebony Williams:
Right.

Margaret Fuhrer:
But what a career you’ve had since then. I think these days, it’s much more common for dancers to jump between the concert and commercial worlds, the way that you have been doing. But it was much less common back then. And yet you made a point, really, of exploring both. So can you talk a little about why you wanted to do that and how those different kinds of work sort of fulfilled you in different ways?

Ebony Williams:
Yes. Well, I think the reason why I did it was because I had a strong desire and I didn’t want to be put in a box. I always enjoyed commercial style movements, although I didn’t really get to train in it the way I would like to. It was more of an upbringing, a social experience for me when I was younger and joining Cedar Lake, and it being in the hub of a place like New York City, where some of these things are right at the doorstep. It just made sense for me to start exploring it, going to take a few dance classes here and there, or investigate choreographers that I was inspired by like Laurieann Gibson.

So I made it a point to talk to my director at the time and let him know that I didn’t feel full without exploring all of these things. I felt like it would be actually a powerful thing for the company, because of things that I learned outside of Cedar Lake and my concert and classical backgrounds, and contemporary background, I felt like I could bring some of those elements back into the studio there as well, and help enrich the studio in another way that wasn’t typical of that space.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that, about how those experiences outside of the concert dance world you then brought back into the concert dance world, and maybe vice versa—how each side informed the other side?

Ebony Williams:
That’s exactly what it did. In the commercial space, I was the ballet dancer with groove. They used to joke and call me the “hip hop ballerina” way back when, and it definitely made me have a staple in both genres. Then of course, as well in the concert dance space, the way that I would use music, the dynamic choices that I would make was very influenced by my commercial background, or the experiences that I was getting from the commercial background. I understood how to punch a movement that would typically feel like it should be light or felt like it needed to have an extra element of dynamics. For me, I enjoyed playing with that. “The pocket” is what we would say, playing with the pocket.

So yeah, I definitely enjoyed putting a lot of that, the groove in that when I took it back to Cedar Lake. One thing that I always would say, and I was really lucky to have a director like Swan who understood me when I would say I didn’t want to be in a space where I feel like I had to become a part of a mold or I couldn’t discover who I really wanted to be as an artist. My goal was to, if someone was to create a piece and it was all in silhouette, I still wanted you to know who Ebony Williams was. So yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I actually love that you brought up specifically that phrase, “in the pocket,” because I feel like you can always tell in a concert environment when somebody knows how to do it. Like, “Oh, that person knows how to be in the pocket. That’s what they’re doing right now.” It’s not the phrase that you use in that environment usually, but that’s exact exactly what’s happening.

Ebony Williams:
Exactly. Exactly.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You’ve also worked on Broadway too, yet another kind of dance arena, although of course there are a lot of overlaps. But what do you see as sort of the through line that connects all of your work in all these different spaces? What are you always looking for in your projects?

Ebony Williams:
I am typically looking for a space that allows me to be a part of the space, to be a collaborator in the space that accepts me and my totality. That was one of the biggest reasons why I did Jagged Little Pill the musical. I basically freestyle to most of the show, but I like to not feel like I have to fit in a box at all. I think most people know that about me now, so that makes it really more seamless when I’m walking into these spaces. But yeah, I think that all of the places that I’m working in, just as much as I want to be a part of their community, they’re also opening their arms to me and they want me there just as much. I think it’s there has to be a partnership in that way. Nothing should feel forced. Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Because they embrace all of who you are as a creator.

Ebony Williams:
Yeah, exactly.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Actually, I’d love to hear a little more about how you first ventured into choreography too, because you’re really well known as a dancer, but I’m a little less familiar with that side of your story.

Ebony Williams:
Yeah. Actually, I’ve been choreographing for most of my career, just people don’t always to know that it’s my choreography or that I had a hand in it, and that’s typical of most dancers. I feel like a lot of dancers are choreographing before they are known for that. You know, I choreographed in Cedar Lake; I choreographed some of my own solos that you have seen in the past. I think I started getting more known as a choreographer, possibly starting with “Made in America,” my solo that Beyoncé asked me to choreograph, while she like basically gave me the stage. I decided to embrace it.

It was a fearful thing for me too, because typically…it’s your voice when you’re the choreographer. You are normally embodying something as a dancer that someone has directed you to do. As the director and the writer now of the movement, you have to take all ownership of that, and that’s nerve wracking because now you’re open to opinion. You’re open to people’s—how they receive it. And that could be scary.

But I think that was the first thing that people noticed, possibly. But I had also choreographed for some campaign kind of things in the past as well that people just didn’t know about. And I’m not someone who is like on Instagram and you know, all the things to showcase what I’ve done. But yeah, different types.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Well, and also I feel like choreographers are under credited generally, but especially if they’re also dancing on that project. It’s like, forget it. You almost never get the kind of credit that you would get if you were involved in some other creative capacity, which is so… That’s another issue for another time, I guess.

Ebony Williams:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I’m wondering, too, if you could talk a little about your choreographic voice and how it evolved over time. Because you have, as you’ve said, all of these diverse influences contributing to it.

Ebony Williams:
How my choreographic voice evolved. Wow.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Big question.

Ebony Williams:
That is. It’s a loaded question. I think at one point I started choreographing just to be creative, also because I wanted to tell more stories that aligned with how I wanted the world to see art and hopefully to awaken things in people, whether it’s something that they needed education on or something that they had to learn about themselves that they may be incorporating in their life that could affect people in a positive or a negative way.

I also started choreographing because I felt like there weren’t enough Black female choreographers in any of these different genres. I felt like I wanted to take on the task, to be honest. I wanted more people like me in the room. Yeah. I just wanted to write my own story. Honestly, I think that was a big part of why I started choreographing. Especially when we’re telling stories about culture and things that I know that I’ve deeply experienced. I think that’s a big reason why I started choreographing. And I wanted to give jobs to my friends that I knew were amazing and deserved it and wanted to be seen or feel seen. Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. The idea of the stories that are being told and who’s doing the storytelling, that’s actually sort of a perfect segue into talking about Unholy Wars. So this is the opera you’re working on for the Spoleto Festival, and it’s such a layered work. Can you talk about how you first came on board this project and how it was described to you and what about it grabbed you?

Ebony Williams:
Yeah, well, they reached out and I think Kevin, I think the director and I may have the same agent or something. I don’t know.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Kevin Newbury?

Ebony Williams:
Yeah. I could be wrong, but I think we do. I think my name came up in conversation about it, and I know that they wanted to do something that was out of the box for the opera world. Even just incorporating movement in itself means similar to what we basically just talked about, being a part of this for him. He really wanted it to have a diverse cast, from what I understood with Karim. He wanted to have a really strong Black voice specifically. And it was kind of funny because at first, when he started talking to me about it, I was like, wait a minute. Are you thinking of me as a dancer in this? Because no. Not as a dancer. And they were like, “No, actually, no, we weren’t. We were thinking as choreographer, and if you wanted to bring in somebody else as a dancer, just that has your vibe.” I was like, “Yes, I’m so glad you’re understanding what I want in my life right now.” [laughter]

So it felt like perfect timing, to be honest. I think overall with all of the things that are happening in the world, it really aligns with what’s happening with Ukraine. We just always… Like, there’s so many spaces where we are in odds with ourselves and with others, and just this overall respecting people in their totality, I just felt really connected to it. I felt connected to Karim because of how he speaks about it. He is so devoted and I can tell that it’s coming from a really deeply rooted place. And I felt like I was in a very similar space at the time. So it just felt like it was right. It just felt like the right thing, even though I didn’t even have much time to do it due to my schedule. It just felt right. So yeah, I believe in divine timing and I wanted to be a part of it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Forces of destiny at work there.

Ebony Williams:
Forces of destiny. That’s what it felt like, seriously.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. So yeah, I mean, there are, it seems like, a lot of different perspectives represented in this opera. How does your unique perspective as a Black dance artist inform the work? Because it sounds like that’s something that, as you were saying, Karim wanted specifically.

Ebony Williams:
Yeah. I think that’s what excited him about the possibility of working together, and also as you’ve mentioned earlier with the fact that I could bring diverse style as well into the show. One of the things that has informed some of it is just the way that as Black women and just women overall have been oppressed in so many different ways, and the fight that I feel like women have had to have, and so for so many years—I think that push, that fight is absolutely going to help influence the work. Just the title alone, Unholy Wars, I think speaks a lot to just even the words, Black woman.

There’s a section in the show where we actually have a fight scene, and it’s I feel like internally how I felt like I had to break through in so many different aspects of my career and as an individual, as a human. So it’ll influence the style of movement that you’ll see. We’re even using capoeira in a section of it. The way we’re using the operatic sound and how we’re embodying it, the dynamics and finding a pocket even in that is something that comes from a really, not necessarily heavy, but a grounded place.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So can you talk a little about what the dance then actually looks like in this opera? How does it help drive the storytelling or weave all the different threads together?

Ebony Williams:
The movement, even the way they walk, informs how the audience connects the sounds and the movement together and makes sure that it’s staged heavily in a storytelling quality. It’s not movement for the sake of movement. Each character has their own way of moving. Taylor, one of his characters is one of privilege. So his manner, it embodies that. He walks with his chest up. He feels more inclined to step into anyone’s space and take it.

Raha’s character has a duality in her movement, strength and grace. She is giving and wise in how she takes the space. Everything is very thought provoking and it is intentional. And I think we’ve pressed forward with her character.

Coral’s character moves in strength. I gave her movement quality sun and fire and wind moving through the space. So I used a lot of imagery to help with some of that. The elements always help with people understanding how to move and change their qualities. Yeah. Did that answer the question?

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love the idea of, here are the elements that describe your character. I wish every choreographer would do that, because you’re right, immediately it gives so much texture.

So Coral Dolphin, let’s talk a little more about Coral. Is she the sort of the one primary dancer or trained dancer in the cast, or what is that relationship?

Ebony Williams:
Yes, she is the one primary dancer, trained dancer and she’s also my associate choreographer for this.

Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s right. Okay. I know her dance background is in some ways similar to yours in that it spans concert and commercial work. I guess she’s the one who has your vibe.

Ebony Williams:
Oh yeah, she has my vibe.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Can you talk a little about that casting process and how you knew she was the one?

Ebony Williams:
She is first of all a wonderful spirit. She is someone that enjoys collaborating and she’s a great storyteller. So I knew that I could trust her with the work, especially because I knew I was going to have to rely on her a lot. And similar to me, as you said, she has worked in many different genres, and I knew that this was one that she had or would be interested in because she’s never done this before, similar to me. I just felt like they would connect on so many levels. She was the inspiration behind even doing the capoeira, and the idea of this entity is, that’s what I see her as being, this versatile warrior almost. She was just perfect for it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
It’s interesting that this is both of your first forays into opera, but—you especially—you have these informed perspectives as people who’ve worked in all these different corners of the performance world. What would you say sets opera apart from these other dance or dance adjacent spaces you’ve worked in, and then on the other side of that, what connects it to them?

Ebony Williams:
What sets apart I think is number one, it typically doesn’t include movement. I feel like it’s a different kind of audience you’re expecting to be in front of and a different kind of established audience. The way that they use music, I feel because it’s in a more of a traditional space, it feels very anchored in a time period, could I say? Like, it feels old worldly in a sense.

In that way, it reminds me a lot of ballet, classical ballet, Lincoln Center. You just can imagine what the room is going to be before you even get there. That’s one way that it feels different.

And working in another space or—another element of being in a touring concert space where everyone that’s there, even if they’re from different walks of life, their love is centered in what they’re there to see even if they come from different places. I feel like my experience in this sounds, this might be the wrong thing to say, but opera and classical ballet was made for one type of audience. I feel like a commercial space that I’m also used to working in can be made for multitude of people. That also can happen in some concert spaces, like in the contemporary ballet world as well. I see the change happening now, and the fact that in all of these areas now, I feel like everyone is yearning for more change. And that’s where I think that we’re all in the same wavelength now, and everyone is trying to be a part of that change in a really beautiful way.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. It’s an opera that aims to welcome as opposed to speaking to just one small group of people.

Ebony Williams:
Yes. It’s an opera that aims to welcome. Absolutely. Instead of speaking to one small group of people. That’s exactly it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You’ve already started to answer this question, but how would you describe the overall message of Unholy Wars? What are you hoping audiences will take away from the piece as a whole and from the dance and the movement specifically?

Ebony Williams:
I hope that they receive compassion and empathy from watching the show. I hope that both their ears and eyes are taken on a wonderful ride that will make them feel and hopefully in some ways enlighten them and make them more curious about what they’re seeing, curious about how we should as a community evolve. That’s basically what I hope. I hope that they see the potential to evolve. Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Potential for the future of opera, potential for the future of dance.

Ebony Williams:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You’ll see moments of pain and love. That’s where the compassion part comes in. Because we’re not always leading with that. We’re taught so much to fight and hold on tight when really there’s a lot of beauty in the release of—what’s the realest way to evolve is to release and let go. So I hope they’re able to do that.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know that you are always working on 20 different things at once. Are there other projects on your horizon right now that you’d like to talk about too?

Ebony Williams:
I do have a film that’s supposed to come out soon, a Disney+ film called Sneakerella.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Very different type of work.

Ebony Williams:
Yes. A completely different type of work. I co-choreographed that with one of my really good friends, Emilio Dosal. It was a fun time. I also am working on a wonderful show called Afterwards, and it’s going be showing at the 5th Avenue theater here in Seattle. And I’m really excited about that. It’s a beautiful story about loss, and about grief and how you can climb out of that grief, and about love. It’s really, really a beautiful story. And I’m working on a few other things that I can’t actually talk about.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Stay tuned.

Ebony Williams:
Stay tuned, friends.

Margaret Fuhrer:
All right, last question. Tell me about what’s left on your bucket list. What things in dance or beyond dance are you still eager to explore? Because you’ve done so much already, but what else is out there?

Ebony Williams:
I would love, and I don’t know that I would consider it just about dance, but I would love to direct my own TV show. I want to push more into the directing and creative director lane, eventually. I also would love to do something outside of just the mainstream position of being a director and choreographer—to pay attention to the youth a little bit more and helping them develop as artists in a way that is not as monetarily straining for them. And I just want to be able to create more space for artists to have a voice, whether that is helping other young choreographers with creating or helping with producing things or just giving them a platform.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Help artists find their voices and give them spaces to use those voices.

Ebony Williams:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Ebony, thank you so much for making the time today. In the show notes, we’ve got more information about Unholy Wars, which premieres May 29th as part of the Spoleto Festival. We also have links to Ebony’s social accounts, so you can keep up with everything she has going on. I’m really excited to see what this show turns out to be. And it was really great talking with you.

Ebony Williams:
You too.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Let’s not wait 13 years between conversations again! [laughter]

Ebony Williams:
I’m here. I’m here. Absolutely. Call me anytime. Thank you so much.

[pause]

One more big thank-you to Ebony. We have all of those promised links for you in the show notes.

And thanks to all of you for subscribing to The Dance Edit Extra. We’ll be back in two weeks with another new episode. Have a great weekend, everyone.