Margaret Fuhrer:

Hi dance friends, and welcome to The Dance Edit podcast. I’m editor and producer Margaret Fuhrer, back with another interview episode for you all.

This week, we’ll hear from the ballet trailblazer Kiyon Ross. A few weeks ago he was named associate artistic director at Pacific Northwest Ballet, where he’ll work alongside artistic director Peter Boal. For Ross, who is Black, to become an artistic leader at a major ballet company was pretty big news, since leadership teams throughout the ballet world are overwhelmingly white. And Ross really knows this company inside and out. He’s been there for more than two decades in a variety of roles: He’s been a dancer, a choreographer, a teacher. Most recently he was the director of company operations, so he’s worked on the administrative side, too. He’s a PNB lifer.

Now, he’s bringing all of that varied experience to bear on his new job. As you’ll hear, he is deeply committed to programming and especially commissioning a wide array of choreographers; to supporting the increasingly diverse roster of dancers at PNB; and to helping the company welcome new and different kinds of audiences. And he believes that all of those goals are related. Here he is.

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Margaret Fuhrer:

Kiyon, hi. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Kiyon Ross:

Hi Margaret. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat with you today.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah. I mean, first of all, congratulations on your big promotion, which was major dance world news when it was announced a couple weeks ago now, and it happened right at the start of the company’s big anniversary season. So you are busy.

Kiyon Ross:

Quite busy. Yeah, thank you for that. I’m pretty excited about this new opportunity. I’ve been at PNB for a really long time and this feels like a natural progression for my career here at PNB. So I’m pretty excited for me, for PNB, and for the dance world.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah, that’s leading right into my first question, which is about the fact that you’ve spent almost your whole professional life at PNB. It’s unfolded there in many different directions. I have a question that I think has some obvious answers and maybe some not so obvious answers, which is, how have all of those experiences at this one organization prepared you for this new artistic leadership role?

Kiyon Ross:

I mean, it basically feels like one of the longest apprenticeships to become an associate artistic director that exists. I know this organization quite well. I came when I was a student, I was about 18 years old when I moved to Seattle. I was training at the School of American Ballet where Peter Boal was actually my teacher, which is actually like a full circle moment here. But I moved out to Seattle. I had never been to the west coast before, never been to PNB before. And I moved out here and just had some really wonderful experiences, first as a professional division student coming from SAB and coming to PNB. It was a really encouraging environment here at PNB. They really liked my dancing, which helps a lot. And I had a really different experience than I had at the School of American Ballet. I mean, here at PNB, the professional division students get to be in rehearsals with company members and get to dance with the company.

And so that was sort my first look into what it would be like to be a company member. And then shortly after that, in 2001, I joined the company. Then I spent 14 years dancing in the company first under Kent [Stowell] and Francia [Russell], our founding artistic directors. And then under Peter Boal, which was amazing. I retired as a soloist in 2015 and then was trying to figure out what my next steps would be. And then opportunities just kept coming at PNB. They invited me to teach on the school faculty. At that point, I had never thought that I would become a dance teacher, but it’s definitely one of the most rewarding experiences that I’ve had being a teacher, especially here at PNB and being able to give back to the students here at our school. So that was wonderful. And during that time, Peter also asked me to start managing our Next Step program, and it’s actually actually a program that allows company members to sort of flex their choreographic muscles and create works in our professional division students. And that was the first time that I had done something completely different than dancing.

Being a manager of a program and working out the logistics and scheduling and contracts, all of those things were completely brand new to me. But saying yes was one of the best decisions I made at that point because it taught me a lot about organizational structure and how things actually got done in a ballet company. And so I did that for about four years, and then the operations director job came up. And at that point I had graduated from Seattle University with a degree in arts leadership through our Second Stage Program, which…again, PNB has all these wonderful programs and opportunities for their dancers. Second Stage is a program that allows dancers to work on their second careers while they’re dancing. So I was taking college classes throughout my dance career and then in 2014, graduated from college with my arts leadership degree.

And I was kind of like, Hmm, I wonder what I can do with this? As you know in the arts, especially at that time when people get into positions, they usually like to stay in them, especially positions at larger ballet organizations. So when this job came up, at the same time, a rehearsal director position came up as well. I actually was going back and forth about which job I would actually apply for. I knew I loved being in the studio with dancers and spending time there, but I also thought that taking the operations director position would give me an opportunity to dive even further into what it would actually be like to run a dance organization.

What I haven’t told you is that sort of in the back of my mind, this whole time, I had been thinking to myself that one of these days I would like to become an artistic director, but not quite sure how it would get there, not quite sure how the opportunities would line up for that to happen. Just kind of putting it out into the universe and basically trying to manifest it. And so the operations director job, I thought would sort of give me even more skills to prepare me for the hopeful eventuality that I will become an artistic director. And so I did that and as soon as I took the job as the operations director, the pandemic hit. And so all of the things that I thought I would be able to handle and manage that’s like completely off the window. And then you immediately go into learning crisis management. And honestly, that was a pretty daunting task to step into running an organization and being in charge of the operations.

And then the whole organization having to shift and pivot its regular business model to something that we had never done, really in the ballet industry especially, we’ve rarely shared our workout digitally and made contracts for sharing digital content, unless it was a larger kind of like DVD release or something like that. But to have your shows actually online was pretty difficult. But at the same time, you learned so much. And I think during the pandemic is when my relationship with Peter actually shifted. At one point because of the rolling furloughs that we were having at our organization to try to manage the storm that was the pandemic, a lot of the leadership team was not working at the same time. And it just so happened that Peter and I, at a certain stint of the pandemic were kind of the only two working and managing the organization, and that is when we started having more in depth conversations, bouncing ideas off of one another, and really just starting to have more of a collaborative relationship.

And although the pandemic was hard, it was probably one of the best learning opportunities I’ve had so far in terms of managing and leadership in an arts organization. I mean, actually wouldn’t change that part, the learning piece. So yeah, I mean, I did the operations job for about three years and then Peter and Ellen approached me with this opportunity, this new opportunity to ascend and become PNB’s next associate artistic director, which I am completely thrilled about. So that’s kind of the long story of how my journey led me to this place in this seat

Margaret Fuhrer:

And not just the next associate artistic director. You’re the first associate artistic director ever at the company?

Kiyon Ross:

Well, our founding artistic director, Francia Russell, I think she held this title for just a tiny bit before she became the co-artistic director. I always like to add that little caveat in.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Thank you. I appreciate the thoroughness in the history there. But, so, this position, as you are inhabiting it, is essentially new. And so I guess what I’m wondering is… Well, first of all, what do your responsibilities actually entail, but then also have you had a role in shaping what they are as you’ve stepped into this role?

Kiyon Ross:

As Peter and I were sitting down developing sort of what my job description would be, we left it kind of loose and open on purpose to allow me to grow into the position because I do have so many different skill sets and I have worked all over the organization. We wanted to make sure that there were some things that I was focused on, but also to make sure that there were ways that I could continue to give to the organization that I love so much. So in the beginning, because this is brand new for me and for Peter and for the organization, we wanted to make sure to narrow the scope of my work at the beginning. So first I’ll be working with Peter on shaping the season on dancer hirings, on coaching in the studio, all of the things that she would expect. But I also will now start to manage some of our offshoot programs that I kind of alluded to before.

So I’ll be overseeing the Next Step program, which is our choreographic program. I’ll also be overseeing our dance film festival, which came about through the pandemic and is managed by PNB soloist Price Suddarth. But I’ll sort of oversee that on a more global level just to make sure that all the logistics and things are worked out. And then I’ll also work with our family matinee rehearsal directors on, again, just high level, just sort of managing the program, logistics, making sure that everything works out, making sure the communication between that group and the artistic leadership team is really clear and open.

I think that with my role as director of company operations, it really gave me a grasp on how communication needs to flow out, especially from the leadership team to the rest of the organization. And I want to take that skill that I have now and bring it back to the artistic team and really make sure that things sort of move smoothly and fluidly and just to make sure that all those programs continue to thrive and flourish at PNB. Those are the three major things I’ll be working on internally, but again, I’ll sort of have a hand in every piece of the organization.

Margaret Fuhrer:

So you’re the ultimate connector in this new job. You put all the pieces together. And I love the emphasis on communication too, because I feel like historically transparency has not been high on the list of priorities at ballet companies. And that kind of development is such a nice thing to see.

Kiyon Ross:

Yeah, and you wonder why… I mean, you wonder why things were always shrouded in mystery. I mean, I think that the more transparent and the more clear you can be, not only with the artists in the organization, but with the entire leadership team, the teams that run the entire organization, the better your product is going to be and the better your organization is going to run. And so clear communication and transparency is a top priority for me as a leader.

Margaret Fuhrer:

All right. So here is, I guess, the question really, which is: How would you describe the bigger-picture artistic vision for PNB that you and Peter are articulating together?

Kiyon Ross:

I think that a focus on new works is incredibly important, especially for ballet organizations. And so that is what Peter and I are really focused on, is bringing new works to our audiences, to our dancers. Because new works not only feeds what people see on the stage, but it feeds a lot of the other departments that work at PNB, orchestra with new commissions, and new costume designers that come in and work with our costume shop, it helps our students kind of see what dance can be and what they can aspire to. So really finding those new voices and using our platform to open the doors really to voices that may not have been heard before or have had an opportunity to share their voice. So choreographers of color, women choreographers are really high on the list for Peter and I as we continue to move forward, really making sure that we have an inclusive vision that includes lots of different people, different voices, different experiences. That’s really important for us at PNB, especially with all the work that we’ve been doing in terms of our inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility.

Margaret Fuhrer:

I know it might be hard to do at this point, but can you name any specific names of choreographers that you’re particularly excited to work with, or maybe ones that already have a relationship with the company that you’re eager to deepen that relationship?

Kiyon Ross:

Of course. So just in rep two coming up in a few weeks here, we have Dwight Rhoden coming to work with us, which we are very excited about. As Dwight is the artistic director of Complexions dance company. And so we’re really excited to have him work with us. Also, Annabelle Lopez Ochoa, she’s worked with us before, but she is coming back. She wants to create a new work in June. We’re trying to get Kyle Abraham here. We love his work and what he’s been doing sort of around. Of course, Crystal Pite has been so amazing to work with and just a really good partner for PNB. We’ll be doing her The Seasons’ Cannon coming up in just a few weeks as well. And we’re working on deepening that relationship with Crystal. I mean, this is, I think the third or fourth work of Crystals that we’ve done so far.

And of course there are more. Of course there are more choreographers that we’re looking forward to working with, and we always keep our ear to the ground looking out into the dance world to see who is doing what and also who is not doing what, who’s not having an opportunity, and maybe PNB can open our platform and share with them so that their voice can get out. Because one of the things I like to say is nobody is anybody until there’s somebody. And so you have to be given opportunities, you have to be given chances to show your work in order for other people to know who you are. And so I think that large organizations using their platform to allow new voices, new choreographers, new people to be seen in the dance world, is one of the ways that we can start to open and shift the culture of classical ballet.

Margaret Fuhrer:

And you’re actually on the program yourself this season. You have a world premiere coming up in June. I know it’s a ways off yet, but you do have a composer and a design team in place, it sounds like. And I’m wondering if you can talk a bit about how that work has begun to take shape, if it has.

Kiyon Ross:

Yeah, we’re still in of the nascent stages, just the beginning stages. I haven’t made a work for our company since 2012 when I made Sum Stravinsky. So I’m excited to get back into the studio and work with our dancers as a choreographer. And as a choreographer at PNB, one of the things that I really look forward to doing is getting to the studios and exploiting our dancer’s talent and really pulling up the different personalities that live within our company. I think that’s one of the benefits of being a choreographer at a dance company where you know the dancers so well, because you’re able to craft a work that really showcases their amazing talent and amazing abilities. So I do have a design team in place, a team that I’m working with. As a dance maker, I’m very collaborative. And I think that most choreographers will say that they are with their teams.

But I’m working with Pauline Smith again. She made the costumes for my Sum Stravinsky back in 2012. So we’re working together again. I’m working with our resident lighting designer. His name is Reed Nakayama. And he’s lit quite a few pieces of mine before. And so I really like to keep working with the same people that I’ve worked with before. I mean, because I think that the more opportunities you get to work together, the better and more cohesive your works will be. And then I’m working with Christina Spinei, who was my composer. And I actually met Christina when I did the New York Choreographic Institute. She was at Julliard and we were paired together as a choreographer composer team. And then she came and she worked with me here at PNB on a piece called Impulse back in 2009. And this is our third time working together.

And so it’s really exciting to have this team together working on this. And I actually now have a little bit of time, a little bit of the luxury of time, I’ll say. Usually when I make pieces or have made pieces in the past, I have such a tight and narrow window to get everything together. And so having basically a year to kind of work through this, I’m hoping that it gives me an opportunity to push and stretch myself into new directions. But also the work will be uniquely Kiyon, which is works that are full of energy, full of joy, excitement, really get you excited about ballet. I consider myself to be a ballet choreographer, and I really like to what I call take ballet and kind of just twist it a little bit and make it accessible, make it exciting, and make people really bounce around in their seats.

And so that’s kind of the energy that we’re going for. I knew for the 50th anniversary season, I wanted to give a gift to PNB, and so I wanted it to have that kind of excitement and anticipation and joy really of when you receive a gift and all of those emotions that you go through when you’re opening that gift and how you feel after you receive it. So that’s kind of the seed of the piece, and we’re kind of working with that to kind of build out the larger piece. Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Oh, your birthday present to PNB. I love that.

Kiyon Ross:

Absolutely.

Margaret Fuhrer:

So you talked a little about how being a choreographer and getting to know the company’s dancers that way was really valuable to you. How else does being an active choreographer inform your perspective now that you are an artistic leader as well?

Kiyon Ross:

I think understanding the art form from several different perspectives allows you to look at art in the world in a different way. I mean, when you’re creating something, it’s different from viewing something, and so you understand all the different components and pieces that an artist has to go through to get to that final place on stage. And as audience members, we usually just see the final place on stage. And so I think that as an artistic leader, I’m always looking for ways to help new choreographers understand that process and also help make that process smooth for them, like being able to anticipate what they may need or what they may want helps me as a leader figure out how to make sure that the product that we put on stage is the best it can be.

Margaret Fuhrer:

I want to come back to something you said earlier, which is you said that you had figured out at a certain point, I think I want to be an artistic director. I’m wondering if you can talk a little more about how you figured that out and what about this type of role appeals to you?

Kiyon Ross:

I definitely say that I thrive in the studio around dancers. I’m thinking back about the time when I was teaching and being in the studio with the dancers, watching them grow, watching them change. I have an affinity for helping usher dancers through their careers. And I thought, Wow, what an opportunity to be the person who can help dancers carve out their careers. And as I looked around at the different jobs and arts organizations, I said, Wow, that’s really one of the things that an artistic director does. Now, back then I kind of thought that was only the only thing that artistic directors did. And since then I have learned so much more. But that component of being in the studio, being around the art, watching your artists flourish, there’s no feeling like that. And it’s even kind of hard to describe when you see one of your dancers have that moment in their career where it’s just like everything comes together, all the things you’ve been working on, all the corrections, everything you’ve been trying to achieve happens. It’s really this moment of pride for both you and your artist.

Now since then, I have learned that an artistic director does much more than that. And so thinking about the organization more globally and not just thinking about how you can help the dancers career, but how you can help all the artists who work in your organization, how you can help their careers move forward. And I think that that’s why having an emphasis on new works is really important, especially for a place at PNB, because you get to see your musicians, your costume builders, your production team, you get to see them grow and thrive in a way that as an artist, as a dancer, speaking for myself personally, I didn’t fully see.

And so now as an artistic leader, that’s something I’m very excited about. I’m very excited about the possibilities of where PNB can go in the future and how I can help with the cultivation and development of all these amazing people who make up PNB. That’s one of the greatest things in life for me is to watch the people around me, the people who are close to me thrive and succeed. And now being in a leadership position of an organization of over 300 people, I have so many opportunities for that, and I’m really looking forward to it.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah. Well, when news broke that you were stepping into this new role, a lot of people were really excited. They were excited to see a person of color in a leadership position, and especially in artistic leadership position, at a major ballet company. And the press release mentioned that you have been, and you will continue to be, the co-leader of PNB’s inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility committee. Those feel like beautiful steps forward. They also feel like huge responsibilities. So this is a two part question. When it comes to equity and diversity and inclusion, what are your priorities as an artistic leader? And then, how are you feeling and coping with the burden of representation as such a prominent voice in these conversations?

Kiyon Ross:

At PNB, we really want to sort of reflect and embrace our community and try to really provide a welcoming and inclusive environment where our artists, our audiences, students, staff, volunteers, all feel welcome in our organization. And I think that having diversity and diverse perspectives, they really help advance that mission forward. This is a moment, especially with everything that happened leading up to this moment where people are actually taking notice about the inequities that existed in ballet and giving voice to it is really an important moment for all, especially ballet organizations, large ballet organizations, to step forward and really start to make some changes. Which we have seen over the past couple of years. When I was growing up here at PNB, there were never more than maybe two Black dancers in our company at any given time. Now, when I look down into the studio and I look at all of the Black dancers and dancers of color that we have in our company, it’s really amazing.

And to know that by me being here and by me experiencing any of the hardships or challenges that I faced sometimes being the only Black dancer here at PNB, that it paved the way for our company to look and have this new perspective around inclusion of our artist is really amazing. We’re doing Carmina Burana right now, and at one point when we were doing Carmina, I was the only one on stage with a darker colored leotard. And now I look up there and I’m like, Look at all of those amazing dancers of color who now have an opportunity to be on one of the largest stage stages in the United States. It’s really incredible, and I’m so glad that I’ve had a hand in helping shape that for our organization. Now, the second part to your question, it does feel like a lot of responsibility to be thrust into the spotlight, especially at a time like this, being a leader of color.

But I take that on and with great pride knowing that now people can look to an organization like PNB and see that one of their artistic leaders is a leader of color, that is going to open so many doors and opportunities for people to realize that they too have a chance now to become something greater than they thought they could ever be. And representation is so important, especially in our art form. I think that when you’re talking about building audiences and building your school, when you have people who are in those positions on stage, in your studios, on your leadership team who look like you, you are more willing and more apt to come and engage with that. It’s really hard to engage with something that you already feel is a little untouchable. Elitist is a word that gets thrown around in our industry a lot, but when you start to see that there are people who look like you who are doing this thing, it feels like, Oh, well, maybe this is for me.

Maybe there is an opportunity and a chance for me to engage with this, and I want to engage with this because there are all these amazing artists, amazing leaders who look like me, who are doing this thing and opening doors for me. And so I really think it’s a privilege and an honor to be a person of color in a leadership position in a major ballet company, and I intend to continue moving the needle forward and continuing to create opportunities for not only PNB, but for other dance organizations in the United States and around the world to be more inclusive and more open. I mean, because really, it is the direction that we’re all headed in.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah. Here’s hoping. As you’re saying, over the past few years, PNB has made what feels like big leaps forward in terms of dancer representation in particular. That’s something to be celebrated. And then those dancers also need support. They’re facing real headwinds still. And I’m wondering, as an artistic leader, and also as someone who, as you said, has experienced some of those same challenges yourself, how are you working to make sure that they’re truly supported? What do they need?

Kiyon Ross:

These dancers need encouragement. They need to know that they are seen. They need to be given opportunities that may have been withheld from them before. And that really takes an open mind which Peter really has, and which I respect him so much for. PNB has implemented being able to wear the same color types and shoes that match your skin tone. We have really made a big push towards gender inclusion. These are things that were previously really, I mean, not allowed in this industry, and to be moving in this direction, especially in larger ballet companies. I mean, of course, the Dance Theatre of Harlem, they always did that for their dancers, and this was a company filled with amazing and talented Black dancers.

But to see now that out in the world and to see the industry changing from the core. Now you have these major apparel and shoe companies making products for dancers of color, which before we would have to be in the back pancaking our own shoes and[inaudible 00:28:34]our own tights, and all of those things. And so I think that all of these changes that are happening, not only internally within organizations, but externally within the dance world at large, are demonstrating the support that dancers of color need to thrive in this industry. And so at PNB, we just want to continue focusing on that, continue focusing on providing opportunities, opening doors, encouraging, supporting artists of color, be that dancers or choreographers, and making sure that they feel seen and they feel heard in a way that they may have not been in past times.

Margaret Fuhrer:

I know a lot of these questions have been very zoomed out, but I want to zoom out even further now. So as you begin this new role, what do you see as the biggest challenges the company currently faces, and what makes you most excited for its future?

Kiyon Ross:

Well, I mean, I think that one of the challenges that PNB faces, and it’s not unique to PNB is just unique to where the arts are in this current climate, is sort of the rebuilding out of the pandemic and trying to get people back into the theaters to see our art, which is how it should be viewed, in person, live event, because there’s something about the community coming together to have a collective experience that you can’t recreate over a screen. I do love what the digital seasons that lots of the large organizations, including PNB, have done to provide accessibility to our art form. But I also hope that we can create a space where people feel comfortable coming back to the theater, especially people who may not have come before, where they feel comfortable coming into the theater, being a part of that experience, experiencing the art, experiencing something beautiful in a collective space.

I think that that’s one of the challenges that many organizations are facing right now. And we’re just kind of putting our head down and putting our feet to the ground and really just trying to really revamp what it means to have that kind of live arts experience. So that’s definitely one of the challenges that the entire team here at PNB is focused on. One of the things that I’m most excited for is a continuation of the work that PNB has been doing in terms of this inclusion and equity diversity piece. Just really seeing the art form change before your eyes.

I mean, I could have never imagined as a young 18 year old dancer dancing in a predominantly white company that many years down the line, the company would look completely different. And so I think that continuing that effort, that evolution forward is something I’m just really excited for. And not only for PNB, but for the entire dance world in general. I see change happening all over the place. I definitely think there’s more that can be done, but just to see this spark and this continued flow forward is just a really exciting place to be. I mean, I think this is one of the best times for myself to be elevated to a position like this when so much good work is happening, and we still have so much good work to do.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah. All right. I’ll close with the most zoomed out question of all. You’ve explored all these different sides of the ballet world. You’ve worn lots of different hats, as people have been saying a lot recently—Kiyon and his many hats. What do you see as the throughlines in your artistic career, the sort of core values that have shaped it as a whole?

Kiyon Ross:

One of these core values for me is to make it better for the people who come after me. That has always been one of the through lines of my entire career. Even as a dancer, as a dancer, when I got promoted to soloist, I wanted to make sure that whatever I was doing and however I was moving through my career, it would make it better for the next person who joined PNB, who looked like me. As a teacher, remembering how my training was, and remember all the challenges and struggles that I went through as a student, trying to make the situation better for my students was always a top priority. As an artistic leader, you mentioned transparency and communication. I always felt as a young dancer that I didn’t get a lot of the information that I needed to be successful. I didn’t understand. People weren’t really forthright.

And so as a leader, I try to make sure that I’m very transparent here at PNB, making sure that everyone who needs the information, has the information they need to be successful. And I think that moving into this next place, just continuing again to say what was missing when I was a dancer? What was missing? What did I need from my artistic leadership? And really trying to take stock of that and trying to create a better situation for the artists that we currently have and the artists that we will have coming in the future. So that has always been one of my core values, and I want to continue moving forward in that way. Just making our industry and making the dance world better.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Always leave things better than you found them. Yep.

Kiyon Ross:

Right.

Margaret Fuhrer:

That’s kind of a lovely place to end. Kiyon, thank you so much for coming on and for being willing to dig deep today. I appreciate it.

Kiyon Ross:

Of course.

Margaret Fuhrer:

And merde for the next rep program, which is just around the corner.

Kiyon Ross:

Just around the corner. Hopefully you’ll see it on one of our digital seasons.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah, listeners, we will have all of the relevant links for you in the show notes. Thank you again.

Kiyon Ross:

Thanks so much.

[pause]

One more big thank-you to Kiyon. As promised, in the show notes we have links with more information about how to get either in-person tickets or digital access to PNB’s upcoming rep program, which includes works by Balanchine and Crystal Pite and, as Kiyon mentioned, Dwight Rhoden. We’ve also got links to the company’s social accounts, so you can keep up with everything they have going on during their big 50th anniversary season, including Kiyon’s premiere this spring.

Thanks to all of you for listening. We’ll be back next Thursday with a headline rundown episode, recapping all the top dance news stories. Until then, keep learning, keep advocating, and keep dancing.