Hi dance friends, and welcome to The Dance Edit podcast. I’m editor and producer Margaret Fuhrer, here with another interview episode for you all.
This week, we are very excited to have two leaders of Dance Data Project with us. Dance Data Project is using data as a tool, a very effective one, in the fight against gender inequity in dance, particularly ballet. Elizabeth Yntema, aka Liza, is the organization’s president and founder, a lawyer and philanthropist and longtime champion of gender equality. Rebecca Ferrell, aka Becky, is its research lead and programming consultant, in addition to being a PhD candidate in arts administration.
Over the past few years, DDP has published a slew of research reports looking at everything from the gender makeup of ballet company leadership to the number of female choreographers in ballet season programming. It recently widened its scope to include contemporary and modern dance companies, and as you’ll hear is hoping to expand even further in that direction. In addition to documenting the severity of gender inequity with all of this data, DDP also offers resources and programs to help uplift women in the field.
This is a tiny organization that is making a significant impact in the dance world thanks to the tenacity and resourcefulness of its team, with Liza and Becky leading the way. And they have just launched several new initiatives that we’re eager for you to hear about. So, here are Liza and Becky.
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Margaret Fuhrer:
Liza, Becky, hi! Thank you so much for coming on The Dance Edit podcast.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Yay! Thank you so much, Margaret. We’re both, I think, really excited to be here and talk about the work we’re doing.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Absolutely. Thanks for having us.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Actually, I love when we have this problem—”problem”—but since we have multiple female voices on the pod today, would you mind each briefly saying hello and then your name so listeners can put names to voices?
Rebecca Ferrell:
Hi, everyone. I am Becky Farrell and so happy to be here today. I am the research lead and programming consultant for Dance Data Project.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Yay. We’re so lucky to have her. Hi, folks. It’s Elizabeth, Liza, Yntema. I am the president and founder of Dance Data Project.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I often start these interviews by noting like, “Oh, we have so much to talk about.” But in your case saying that actually feels inadequate. Dance Data Project is doing so much right now. And I’m really eager to discuss all of the various projects that you have going on, but I want to start first with a couple of bigger-picture questions.
So the first one is, it seems like there’s relatively little data collection and sort of metrics-based analysis happening in the dance field. Why does dance need more data? What does it give us the power to do?
Rebecca Ferrell:
Yeah, so it’s vital to have metrics-based data to really clearly outline issues of equity and transparency, especially in the ballet field, which is what we’re focused on. There are things that are talked about, but it’s important to have concrete numbers that can be referenced and utilized to change gender imbalance in the dance sector. It’s really easy for someone to kind of say off the cuff that ballet companies with the largest budgets program the least amount of women, or that women get paid significantly less than male counterparts. It’s pretty easy to kind of brush that off. But when you have the data to back it up, people really start to listen, and that’s where we’re seeing the change happen.
Margaret Fuhrer:
This is a massive question that I know will be answered in more detail as we talk specifically about the projects you’re working on, but to sort of give an overview, what are Dance Data Project’s central goals? What are the key issues that it’s working to address? And Becky, you’ve already started getting into that with your previous answer.
Elizabeth Yntema:
So Margaret, I’ll take that one. So I started Dance Data Project because I didn’t see opportunities from women in leadership, whether that’s choreographic, artistic, or executive positions. And I was really startled—I did a ton of research before going ahead and founding DDP—that we are the only organization focused on serving the needs of the overwhelming majority of the dance workforce, which is female and is underpaid or very frequently unpaid, so that can be documenting the gender pay gap between men and women or how few of the classically based companies are commissioning women, particularly for those super lucrative full evening works.
But we are also an extremely practical organization, and so my goal initially was to identify and document the problem of lack of female leadership and opportunities, but then what do you do about it, and how do you fix that? So we’re focusing on providing solutions, and that can be as simple as the banner headline that runs across our homepage that organizes upcoming grant scholarships and fellowships for extremely busy women in the field, or men if they want to go to our website, but we’re also focusing on the culture at ballet companies and trying to improve it, which goes back to my background as a management labor attorney.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Before we started recording, Liza, you were talking about how the expertise of Becky and of other team members has become so critical to the work and to the mission of Dance Data Project and how you’ve sort become an incubator for just great female talent. Did you want to talk a little more about that?
Elizabeth Yntema:
So the organization has expanded in ways that I had never anticipated, and one of the great joys has been my team. I have the best, the most talented team in the world. Everybody’s got other jobs. A lot of folks are volunteering part of their time. If you look at our board and our advisory council, an extraordinary array of talents, one of our board members is a MD/PhD in statistics candidate. We have MBAs, we have attorneys, but we’re also hiring and giving real work to high school aged interns. And boy, are they spectacular, and I’ll let Becky talk a little bit about that.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Yeah, it’s really great to be able to work with so many young female researchers. That was something that really drew me to DDP. I know Liza and I got to meet during my time at Dance USA. And then as I started my PhD journey, remember jumping on a Zoom with her being like, “Hi, can we talk about data? Can we just nerd out for a minute?” And then I started to hear about all of the new upcoming things, just very exciting to be able to be part of that. And with that, to be able to train young researchers that are high school or in their first year of college was just incredible because I didn’t have that, right? This is me in my PhD program saying, “Oh my gosh, how can I help? How can we help each other?” And then to be able to kind of shepherd along and help these young researchers, these female researchers, is incredible. No one else is doing this work, so it’s just great to be part of this team.
Elizabeth Yntema:
And one of the other things I want to emphasize is that although we are focused on promoting women and girls, I’m very much aware of the barriers that exist for young women of color to work in STEM and to get opportunities to do significant research, so we are really focused on creating a diverse team, advisory council, and board, and that means age, that means geographic. We don’t want everybody from New York, we don’t want everybody from an Ivy League. And I guess I would just say, woo, there’s a lot of smart people out there.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well, so let’s start talking now about some of these specific programs and projects that you’re working on, and I wanted to begin with your Gender Equity Index, which you announced a few weeks ago, because it sounds like a potentially game-changing development for the field. So for those who might not yet have heard about it or who might not know about the idea of a gender equity index more broadly, can you talk a little about how it will work and what you’re hoping it will accomplish?
Rebecca Ferrell:
I love it! I love it. I love the Gender Equity Index. It’s another thing, when Liza and I were talking early on, I was like, “Ooh, yes, please let me be part of this.” So this is really the first time this tool, this concept has ever been applied to performing arts. So Liza, myself, and the research team really spent a great deal of time studying gender equity indices from Bloomberg, United Nations, McKinsey, and others. And we really wanted to put the issue of gender equity in terms that the general public would understand, so something that’s really digestible.
So for us, we’re taking an additive approach, so companies will gain points for every area in which they’re working towards equity. So some of these categories include publishing their most recent tax returns, publicly disclosing pay ranges, publication and training codes of conduct, where are those on their website, who gets those, as well as what are the reporting mechanisms for sexual assault, harassment, bullying, and how many works are choreographed by specific genders, and which of those genders have roles and executive and artistic leadership.
So how it’s broken down is commissions is 55%, leadership is 25%, and then the survey on practices and protocols is 20%. Something that was really important to us is we want to wake up to stakeholders. So we’re talking about audiences, board of directors, foundations, journalists. We really want people to know that even though this is a female dominated field, it’s still the men who tend to hold the titled, prestigious, higher-paying positions, and they received the most lucrative high profile artistic commissions. And really additionally, with all the repeated ongoing scandals involving sexual harassment and assault in the field, we wanted to be really laser focused on individual companies creating a safe, respectful environment for all of those who walk through the door. So, multi-pronged.
Elizabeth Yntema:
I would just add that there tends to be this sort of, “it’s always been this way”—particularly in ballet—”it’s always been this way, nothing’s ever going to change. You’ve just got to put up with it.” And I think both Becky and I and all the members of our team are essentially super optimistic people that are interested in practical solutions, and I know from my work in the legal arena, you can make changes with protocols and procedures. Just like election law is important and certifying results, similarly, you can change culture if the correct procedures and protocols are in place, and you don’t have to be a massive company, you don’t have to have a budget of over 30 million to put those guardrails in place.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, And you can make real change by creating and offering the resources that people need to reach the positions of power that you are hoping these female and minority candidates ultimately will, which is leading into the next question, the next initiative: your Raising the Barre curriculum, a training program designed to increase the number of female and minority candidates for leadership positions in the arts. What does that involve? Why is it so crucial? And how does it tie into your data-driven work?
Elizabeth Yntema:
Go, Becky.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Woo-hoo! Okay. I really, I’m like such a big fan of Raising the Barre. Again, one of those initiatives, I was like, “Yeah, can I work on this?” So for me, when I was thinking about this and when Liza and I were really talking about this, it’s really crucial because having the tools to negotiate contracts, or if you want to start a 501c3 company, getting comfortable with budgets, programming a successful season, these are skills that are directly tied to dance leadership and help women apply for executive and artistic positions that they may not have felt confident to go for in the past.
And the way it really ties into our data is because we want more women in these positions. We’re seeing the lack of those, and we want to make sure that they’re being able to interview for these jobs and getting these jobs. Our series is actually completely free and accessible on the DDP website, and each session is accompanied by a tangible resource, so viewers can watch, rewatch each episode, and then utilize the assets to really compile a robust toolkit to help build their careers, so no paywalls, no barriers in that way, which was vital for us.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Listeners, we’ll have all those links for you in the show notes.
Elizabeth Yntema:
And I would just add by the way, that if there are any guys out there who want to be better applicants, why not take advantage of all these free resources that we have up on the website? We can talk a little bit more broadly about this, but Margaret, I think you see it from where you are, and Becky, you certainly know this, the field is changing, it’s getting a lot more challenging, and it’s not good enough just to be really good looking and point your feet well and have a big Instagram following. You really need to understand how to interact with board of directors, how to fundraise, what a budget, what a spreadsheet looks like. What do you do in the middle of a crisis? How do you prepare for it? How do you create a strategic plan that actually has impact? What does a really impactful community relations program, not just to check the box for the gala, look like? And I think everybody can benefit by training in those areas.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, any dance artist coming into an artistic leadership position, unless they’ve had previous administrative experience, they’re going to be unprepared essentially. That’s why this kind of stuff is so important.
Speaking of which, over the past few years, there’s been just a remarkable amount of turnover in ballet company leadership, artistic directors, executive directors, the top tier. So at the risk of asking an obvious question, and you’ve already started to answer this one too, why is the gender gap at that level an especially important problem to address? And have you seen meaningful progress start to happen on that front?
Elizabeth Yntema:
How long do we have again?
Margaret Fuhrer:
I know, it’s all dissertation prompts, yeah.
Elizabeth Yntema:
I think this is why data is so important, and that’s why I want Becky to really dig into the numbers a little bit with you. There have been some remarkable, earth shattering, never thought I would see it, literally stood up and danced around my home office changes. So Tamara Rojo and Susan Jaffe running two of the largest, most prestigious ballet companies in the United States—never thought I would see the day, brilliant choices. Also, can I just say a proper search, not a casual, behind the scenes anointing, which usually happens and then transitions it from one male artistic director to another. I think we are going to see real change with these two women, who embody a lot of the qualities we were talking about. One has a PhD, the other’s been a dean. I mean, it’s a new day.
On the other hand, and I really want Becky to jump in here, those brilliant headlines—and sometimes companies, I would call it performative hygiene, and I’ve stolen that phrase with regard to female choreographers, particularly women of color, can really hide the dismal, dismal numbers overall, and it’s important that we recognize those and not get too excited. Although it is important about the changes at the top, we still continue to see that it’s the smaller companies—Christine Cox at BalletX comes to mind immediately—who are programming women, bringing new voices to the table.
I will say, though, I am encouraged seeing, for example, the Joffrey and ABT collaborate together. The Joffrey, again, recommissioning women, Sarasota Ballet recommissioning Gemma Bond. Because what we’ve seen in the past is one and done. What we’re not seeing, and I really think we need to be aware of and talk about, is women are not getting the full evening world-premiere commissions. And in the next season, we’re seeing sort of a retreat to safety. And I’ll let Becky talk a little bit more about that.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Yeah, I know that Margaret, while we were getting ready for this, thinking about, how bad is gender equity in the dance industry? It’s pretty horrendous. So looking at 2022 and the largest 50 companies, women made up 30% of artistic directors while men made up 70%. And then if you get more granular and look at the largest 10, those percentages change from 20% and 80%. So only two female artistic directors, which Liza just highlighted. And then when you start thinking about pay equity, what male ADs are paid versus women, and the largest 50 US ballet companies, in FY 2020, women earned 63 cents for every dollar earned by a man as an artistic director. And just for a little bit of comparison, because this was really interesting to me and the research team, in FY 2019, women earned 73 cents on the dollar. So women are actually earning less than before, which was a staggering trend.
And then season overview, which is a report that we’ve just released, among the largest 150 ballet and classically influenced companies, 29% of the works were choreographed by women in 21-22 performances and 12% of the works comprised of an evening length, mixed bill, or full length by women. So we just continue to drop also. So for me, the thing is companies just can’t really check the box. Like, “Oh, we hired a female, yay, we did it. They choreographed a 10 minute piece.” It’s not sustainable for these female artists.
And we’re also seeing that the smaller companies, those are the ones that are being led by females, they’re commissioning females consistently, they’re putting all that support into the female dance workforce, which is what we want to see. But why are the largest 50 that have all of these resources not doing that? So that’s where the frustration comes when we look at the numbers. We check things like 50 times, really and truly we verify and verify and verify. And we’re always, it is a sad moment. So when we do see these great things, like Liza said, like yes, we have two very strong female artistic directors—we want more. It can’t just be 20%.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Yeah. And I’m going to expand this out a little bit because I’m on several other boards. And so from my donor’s sort of interest in the arts perspective—Jennifer Homans famously said, “Ballet is stuck.” And it really seems to be the case. There is what appears to be, particularly in coming out of the pandemic, a race to safety, which I actually think is incredibly self-destructive for the art form. Somebody actually said, which I couldn’t believe in a press release, “We want to see real ballet.” And real ballet apparently means all white, all male. But because companies don’t want to spend money on big new productions, because they’re very expensive, it appears what’s happening is that they’re going back to their existing repertoire. And when your existing repertoire is overwhelmingly white and male, we’re seeing, I mean I like Balanchine as much as the next person, but there’s got to be something else out there. It’s very like Hollywood. We need a franchise. So the version of…
Margaret Fuhrer:
The Avengers in ballet.
Elizabeth Yntema:
…yes, Iron Man, is let’s do a Ratmansky, let’s do a Peck, let’s do a Christopher Wheeldon, because that’s less risky. But if things don’t change, we’re going to start seeing the end of the summer intensive at the beginning of The Nutcracker, which is going to run through March. I mean, there’s got to be something interesting out there that will bring audiences back, because they’re not coming back right now.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And what do you think is the “why” behind why smaller companies are doing so much better on this front? That’s a complicated question.
Elizabeth Yntema:
It is indeed, and I have to be cautious here because DDP stays in our lane. We are the “what,” not the “why.” But everybody’s nervous, and I do think that this sort of drive to safety is eventually going to be almost suicidal for the art form. You look at something like BalletX or some of the other smaller companies that women are running, and you’re seeing new voices being brought in, you’re seeing exciting work being done, and some of the bigger companies go in and sort of cherry pick from that, but my issue about ballet overall is that everybody waits for permission to sort of, “Okay, this person is the person.” That does not leave a lot of room for other women, other voices, et cetera.
Rebecca Ferrell:
I think it’s tricky to try to say that it’s just this one thing. I think that there are multiple issues that continue to happen in the field and that people are so worried about revenue streams right now coming out of the pandemic, and thinking of things like Serenade as like the safety net, right? That’s kind of one of my catch phrases. But I think that there does need to be a change. I think there needs to be some bold moves here. I mean, we’re a field based on creativity, and we want to see that come back, and I think that there are plenty of very incredible female emerging choreographers that need to be commissioned at this point and kind of lead that path.
Elizabeth Yntema:
One thing that I sort of touched on it before, but I really feel strongly, that the me, me, me, mine, mine, mine model, my Swan Lake, my Romeo and Juliet, my whatever it is—that model needs to disappear. It’s like all these artistic directors attain respectability by putting their stamp on something, like, “I did this.” We are starting to see more collaboration, but I think for the art form and just fiscally for people to survive, things have gotten so expensive, they’re going to have to start collaborating with other companies. I’m really surprised this hasn’t happened more actually.
The other thing I’d observe overall, and this is just sort of a meta-analysis, is that very often artistic directors are chosen for their star power or for whom they know and what you don’t see them as really focusing on the community in which they exist. So you look at Toni Pimble at Eugene Ballet, you look at Victoria Morgan at Cincinnati, who’s retiring, but I’m seeing the same commitment from Jody Gates; you see Paul Vasterling in Nashville. Folks who actually try and get to know their community and commit to it I think are going to be much more successful than the museum directors, the opera directors who are trying to impress their colleagues in London or Berlin. But that’s a very different mindset, and again, that goes back to different kind of training, right?
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Building local roots is so important. All right, I’m going to change tacks a little bit to get into another one of your initiatives, the interview series that you have called Moving Forces: Motherhood and Dance, which I know is another of Becky’s projects here. Navigating motherhood is challenging for women in all kinds of workplaces, but mothers in dance face just impossible obstacles.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
So Becky, who are you talking to? What questions and issues are you hoping to address?
Rebecca Ferrell:
Yeah, so first I had to think about it from this perspective. I’m a dancer, I’m a dance researcher, I’m an academic, I’m a curator. So something for me, I always try to look at that perspective of how can I provide visibility to artists, but while really carefully considering the conditions of the world that they’re creating then? And one thing that I’ve noticed in the past year was an increased call for lactation room availability, family leave, childcare provided during rehearsals, performances, and even residency programs for families, which have been really incredible to see.
So I really wanted to chat with mothers in the field to hear their perspectives and a really candid reality of what it’s like to be a mother in dance and what are some of the recommendations they might have for us for a more inclusive workplace. So I’m talking to choreographers, artistic directors, academics, dancers, those in the commercial dance space also in concerts, so we’re thinking ballet dancers and also contemporary dancers and even some former Broadway dancers. So getting a fuller scope of the dance field. The outpouring of support for this program has actually been really overwhelming in such a great, incredible way. And for me, it just solidified the fact that we need massive change to support working mothers in the dance industry because the structures are not there.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Amen. I think people forget what an anomaly and how retrograde the United States is for not having a national family leave, elder care policy, because it’s not just kids, it’s parental care, family care, et cetera. But the United States is really out there by itself in terms of the developed world, but even the developing world, and I think we forget that, right? That the safety net is zero. It’s, you’re on your own. And this is not a political issue, by the way, because I’ve heard folks on the left, the right, people throughout ballet world sort of say, “Well, you did it, you own it.”
Margaret Fuhrer:
What have been some especially illuminating things that you’ve taken away from those conversations?
Rebecca Ferrell:
That the system is not set up for mothers. I mean, just very candid, very blunt. I knew that going in, but to hear it after interview, after interview, after interview, I mean, I have another one today, I have another one next week, and the system is not set up for it. It isn’t. I mean, maybe having a lactation room, great, but what about when I’m in rehearsal? What about if my babysitter gets sick? Does that mean I can’t go on tour? Does that mean I can’t make it to rehearsal? Does that mean my understudy steps in? There’s so many variables that the structure is not made for mothers.
Elizabeth Yntema:
And I also want to throw in from sort the employer business side, it puts companies in a really rough position when it’s all on them to figure things out. In other countries, there is affordable neighborhood available daycare where people are compensated for taking care of your child. Ditto your elder. In the United States, it’s all on the employer. And of course, with declining audiences and coming out of the pandemic, I understand why they’re nervous, and they’re looking to their colleagues, what are you doing? But I wish we could get over this “how much do we have to do” mentality, and rather into “let’s get creative together.” But that means partnership with your staff and your dancers.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Gosh, themes throughout, just applying the same creativity to administrative and programming practices that we do on stage.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Look what you just said!
Margaret Fuhrer:
More of that, everywhere! [laughter] So as you’ve launched all of these initiatives, you’ve also been releasing a steady drumbeat of research reports, really an unbelievable amount of research. And you’ve referenced some of that already, but can you talk a little more about what’s up next in your queue?
Rebecca Ferrell:
I know for me what’s up next is, we’ve done so much in the ballet sector that the research has grown tremendously, so I think being able to expand upon our modern and contemporary company research is really important to us on the research team. So looking at maybe the largest 60 or the largest 75 modern and contemporary companies is something I think that we would like to do in the future. And also conduct a similar AD/ED salary data byte for the modern and contemporary companies. Just making sure that we’re being more expansive beyond ballet where we can.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Quick reminder to anybody who’s listening, I am mostly still funding Dance Data Project. There is not a lot of money out there for anything to do with women and girls. So 1.6% of overall philanthropic funding goes to causes devoted to women and girls. Dance, by the way, is the least well funded of performing arts generally, and I think that trickles down too. And we’re one step away.
So we’re doing the research which we then hope other folks will use. But that’s why we’re investing so heavily in artificial intelligence and looking at collaborations with universities to give students an opportunity to use some of their coding computer programming skills, because I really prioritize paying my staff as well as I possibly can, but if we can automate some of this work, it’s also a really good backstop to the work we’re doing that’s created by human beings. I don’t know a better way to say that. There probably is a better way to say it.
Rebecca Ferrell:
No, just efficient systems—I think, Liza, you nailed it. How are we looking at how we’re collecting data? What’s the most beneficial? How can we be most efficient, and how are we pushing out reports that can really change the field? Liza has said that we’ve had people take our data and say, “Hey, I need a salary change.” They’re being able to use it as ammunition, and that is really important to us as well.
Elizabeth Yntema:
One of the things that we’ve started to do, by the way, is that we’re just releasing today, and obviously this podcast is going to come out a little bit later, an artistic and executive director compensation report. We’d like to go deeper with that, but it’s really important, because not every company can perform analysis of similar size companies, and that data exists, but it’s not public. So I think it’s important that all the stakeholders know how people are being paid, if there’s been some extraordinary pay increases, which we’ve seen, and then frankly those companies that have bitten the bullet appropriately during the pandemic, and we see a C-suite level cut in pay, and good for them for absorbing a little bit of the blow of the horrific impact of the pandemic.
But we want to give people the tools to advocate for themselves. And that means, again, that we’re not putting up a pay well, we’re not trying to make money off you.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Correct.
Elizabeth Yntema:
So if you’re an artistic director or staff dancers at a company, you can look at our report now and see how your artistic director got paid, how your executive director got paid, and then the size of the budget overall in the industry. And we’d just like to keep going with that into modern and contemporary. If eventually we could, I’m interested in exploring the world of commercial dance, which is apparently the Wild West.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh gosh, yes. Data collection there will be very useful—and a big adventure. Yeah, and I love this idea of the research reports as not just alarm bells, but also tools that can be used by these companies.
So I guess the biggest question, one I’ll close with, is, how can we help you when it comes to improving gender equity in the dance field? What are the most important actions that dance leaders and other members of the dance community can be taking, should be taking?
Rebecca Ferrell:
I mean, for me, it really is, how are you supporting women? We have to just keep supporting women in the field, and when we see these inequities, we have to call them out as they are. And I think that’s something that I love about DDP, is that we actually don’t do the calling out, we just state the facts, right? We’re very transparent about it. And then how are people using that data to make the field more equitable? That’s the huge one for me. And just keep supporting women. They can’t just be a check mark for you. It can’t just be, “We’ve done our equity work for the year, we hired one female choreographer.” It has to go deeper than that. You have to be looking at every facet of your organization and see where those inequities lie.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Yeah. I guess I’m going to start with a thank you to all of Dance Media. You all have been spectacular in terms of profiling and platforming our work.
Overall, I think we’re all on the same team here. We’re all trying to make the art form better, more sustainable, more interesting, and I think it requires some coaxing over time.
I also have been in these board rooms, and they’re full of very, very smart people who somehow when they join a performing arts board, particularly in dance, seem to turn their brains off. It’s not okay just to show up at the gala, raise a ton of money, and then hand it over and not ask any questions. I think board members, I think community members—I’m thinking in particular of San Francisco Ballet’s community and how they really were the impetus for change—it is possible to affect change as an audience member, as a donor, as a member of the board. I think using our statistics, if you’re a company, that would be great. Also send people to our website. And if Melinda Gates or McKenzie Scott is out there, we operate on a tiny budget. You can change the world if you really work hard at being efficient. And also if you have the best team in the world.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Liza and Becky, thank you both so much for coming on and for all of this just incredibly important work that you’re doing with Dance Data Project. We sincerely, sincerely appreciate it.
Rebecca Ferrell:
Thanks, Margaret. This is great.
Elizabeth Yntema:
Yes, thanks so much.
[pause]
One more big thanks to Liza and Becky. Please do visit dancedataproject.com, where you can find all of DDP’s research as well as info about its current projects and initiatives. In the show notes we have direct links to pages about the Raising the Barre curriculum, the Gender Equity Index, and the Moving Forces: Motherhood in Dance series.
And thanks to all of you for listening. We’ll be back next Thursday with a headline rundown episode, recapping all the top dance news stories. Until then, keep learning, keep advocating, and keep dancing.