Margaret Fuhrer:

Hi, dance friends, and welcome to The Dance Edit podcast. I’m Margaret Fuhrer.

Courtney Escoyne:

And I’m Courtney Escoyne.

Margaret Fuhrer:

We are editors at Dance Media, back for another headline rundown episode. We’ll get things started by doing our usual quick summaries of all the top dance news stories of the past two weeks, which include just a plethora of season announcements and yet another development in the Marco Goecke story. Then we will have a longer segment getting into recent conversations about how ballet training shapes women’s sense of self. Alice Robb’s new memoir, Don’t Think, Dear, and the new season of the podcast The Turning are two of the primary drivers of those conversations. We’ll discuss both of them.

Just a little housekeeping before we dive into all of that. Next Thursday we’ll be airing a great interview episode. This one discusses Agnes de Mille’s multifaceted female characters. Dance artist Kathleen Moore, who worked with de Mille directly, and then Linda Murray from the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts, they had a fantastic conversation about the powerful, groundbreaking women of de Mille’s ballets, and about what those roles can express in today’s context. I hope you’ll tune in for that. That’s next Thursday, March 16th.

Courtney Escoyne:

I just want to be Linda when I grow up. She’s so great.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Oh my goodness, both of them were just dreamy, dreamy podcast guests. I barely had to ask a question. They know so much. It was wonderful.

And then the other item on our housekeeping list is to ask you all to please rate interview and subscribe to this podcast on your listening platform of choice. We love hearing your honest feedback—emphasis on honest. Please tell us what you love and also how we could be doing better.

Now, it’s time for our headline rundown, beginning with an update on…poopgate.

Courtney Escoyne:

Thanks, I hate it. [laughter] Nederlands Dans Theater has suspended Marco Goecke’s position as associate choreographer, another consequence of the choreographer’s assault on journalist Wiebke Hüster. The company had initially indicated that it would continue to work with the choreographer. This decision came after NDT received a letter from dozens of critics stating that Goecke’s apology had been inadequate, that they would no longer review his works unless and until a serious apology was issued by the choreographer, and questioning how the company saw its relationships with journalists going forward.

Margaret Fuhrer:

I mean, NDT—late to the right answer, but getting there eventually.

Courtney Escoyne:

Got there eventually. We’ll see.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Next on our list today, Dance Data Project has released the first ever Gender Equity Index for the US dance industry. The index assesses how the largest 50 ballet companies in the country measure up in terms of commissioning female creators, promoting women to leadership positions, and generally fostering a transparent culture. In addition to its overall ranking, DDP also gave out some “best of” awards and a few different categories, and we have a link to the whole report in the show notes. Please check it out. There are some surprises in there and some…not surprises.

Courtney Escoyne:

But now there’s data to back those up.

Margaret Fuhrer:

There you go.

Courtney Escoyne:

A big congratulations are due to Hannah O’Neill and Marc Moreau, who have become Paris Opéra Ballet’s newest étoiles, the company’s highest rank. It’s a particularly notable promotion for O’Neill. She is from New Zealand, making her one of the very rare non-French stars at Paris Opéra, and one of the even fewer who is Asian. Her mother is Japanese.

Margaret Fuhrer:

New York City Ballet also recently promoted several dancers. Emilie Gerrity, Isabella LaFreniere, Roman Mejia, and Mira Nadon all became principal dancers at the end of the company’s winter season. All of those promotions incredibly well-deserved—this really feels like the company’s next generation of big time stars. We also have to give a special shout out to Mira, who is not only the youngest of the group—a principal at 21, which is pretty remarkable—but also the company’s first Asian American female principal. That is a big deal.

Courtney Escoyne:

Absolutely huge. And also I think anyone who has seen her dancing this winter season is completely unsurprised.

Margaret Fuhrer:

She was the only person surprised by that promotion.

Courtney Escoyne:

Truly. I also have to say, I had a moment when Roman’s name was on that list where I was like, didn’t he already get promoted to principal? Wait. Oh, okay, yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:

He’s just been cast like it for the past year and a half.

Courtney Escoyne:

All four of them deserve it so, so much. So exciting to see.

On the other side of the coin, in a move that was deeply puzzling to all of us on the Dance Media Slack channel, frankly, the Bolshoi Ballet has issued a statement that ballerina Olga Smirnova was fired last April after stating her opposition to the war in Ukraine. According to some reporting, she has been on leave for the last year and was expected to return to the Bolshoi next week. But considering that she’s joined Dutch National Ballet as a principal dancer and is guesting with Les Ballets de Monte Carlo, did anyone think she was going back to the Bolshoi?

Margaret Fuhrer:

The whole thing is very strange. It seems like a very petty effort to wrench control back in the situation on the Bolshoi’s part.

Courtney Escoyne:

It feels pretty petty, yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:

In a very different corner of the ballet world, longtime Royal Winnipeg Ballet artistic director André Lewis has said that he will step down in 2025. Lewis’ career at the company spans 50 years. He became its artistic director in 1996, and then also its CEO in 2018. The announcement noted that the role will now be split into two roles. After his departure, there’ll be a new executive director in place by this summer and a new artistic artistic director by 2024.

Courtney Escoyne:

The musical chairs continue.

The Broadway-aimed Great Gatsby musical adaptation has found its director and choreographer. I was really excited by this news, spoiler alert. Rachel Chavkin of Hadestown and Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812 fame will direct, while Sonya Tayeh is attached to choreograph. They join a team that includes Florence Welch—like yes, Florence and the Machine Florence Welch—as composer for a premiere production at American Repertory Theater set to debut in 2024. I, for one, an ready for Rachel Chavkin to make me feel things with lamps again. I don’t know how it’s going to happen, but it’s going to happen. And then Sonya’s work on Moulin Rouge makes me feel like she’s the perfect choreographer to bring the glamour and the excess of the Gatsby party to life.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Totally.

Courtney Escoyne:

It makes sense.

Margaret Fuhrer:

What a just crazy dream team all around. Love it.

In New York City, the Chelsea-based Joyce Theater Foundation has announced that it is planning to expand into the East Village. It has signed a year-long lease on a rehearsal and studio space that can also be used for small performances over on East 10th Street. If the foundation can raise the funds needed for renovation, it plans to purchase and permanently operate that venue. The Joyce will both use the space itself and also rent it out to other companies, with some studios available at subsidized rates. More space for dance and dancers in New York City, yes, please.

Courtney Escoyne:

Yeah, can’t be mad about it. I think Brian Brooks is already at work in the space from what I saw on Instagram.

The Royal Ballet School has announced a new partnership with Podium Analytics, a charity focused on reducing injuries in sports. The aim of the partnership is to reduce injuries in young dance students by sharing data and building a clearer understanding of injury, risk and impact for these young athletes that can in turn inform the charity’s overall efforts to reduce youth injury in sport overall, not just in dance.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Such a cool model. Always great when dancers can benefit from the advances in sports medicine.

Courtney Escoyne:

Very important.

Margaret Fuhrer:

All right, here’s the first in a long list of recent season announcements. American Dance Festival’s 90th anniversary season will feature 32 performances by 23 choreographers and companies, including 13 commissions and nine world premieres. Those are some pretty impressive numbers. ADF is, of course, based in Durham, and 50 of this year’s choreographers and performers are local, they’re from North Carolina. There are tons of familiar names on the season announcement, which we have linked in the show notes.

Courtney Escoyne:

I can’t wait for summer festival season. It’s going to be so much fun.

It’s also the season for ballet companies to announce their 2023 through ’24 seasons. I’m just going to hit some highlights. English National Ballet’s first season under Aaron S. Watkin will include premieres from Andrea Miller, which in her case will be a reinterpretation of Les Noces, the Nijinska version of which is in the Royal Ballet’s repertoire, and also by David Dawson. Both will be kicking off the season in September.

Over at National Ballet of Canada, they’ll get a new literary ballet from Cathy Marston, Emma Bovary; a new ballet by Canadian choreographer William Young; the North American premiere of Emma Portner’s Islands, created for Norwegian National Ballet; and Carlos Acosta’s production of Don Q, originally created for the Royal Ballet in 2013 and revised for Birmingham Royal Ballet last year.

The Joffrey Ballet will premiere a new work by English choreographer Stina Quagebeur, which I’m very excited about. They’ll also have the company premiere of Liam Scarlett’s full length Frankenstein.

At Colorado Ballet, they have a season of mostly full lengths with the notable edition of Val Caniparoli’s Jekyll & Hyde, which premiered at Finnish National Ballet in fall 2020 of all times, as well as the return of Coppélia, and at least one premiere slated for the end-ofseason triple bill, the choreographer for which is to be announced.

There’s obviously a lot more to these seasons that I did not get into, and that was already a lot.

Margaret Fuhrer:

We have all of those releases linked in the show notes, so you can look at everything that’s going on there.

Here is perhaps the most delightful story of the lineup, or my personal favorite at least. Misty Copeland appeared on the season three premiere of Ina Garten’s series “Be My Guest.” Copeland not only talked about her experiences as a ballet trailblazer, but also shared her baked citrus salmon recipe with Garten. How fabulous is that?

Courtney Escoyne:

So fabulous.

Pacific Northwest Ballet principal Lesley Rausch has announced that she’ll retire at the end of the current season. She’ll give the final performance of her 22-year career at the company season encore show on June 11th. I’m someone who, even though I didn’t grow up seeing PNB, just has a lot of nostalgia and fondness for all of their dancers. I don’t know, this one feels like a little… It was a little sad.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Yeah, end of an era.

We also have some sad news for “Dancing with the Stars” fans: Emma Slater has filed for divorce from Sasha Farber. The two “Dancing with the Stars” pros have been married for four years, after Sasha proposed on a live episode of the show back in 2016. But they’re currently performing together on the “Dancing with the Stars” tour, so it seems like an amicable breakup, at least.

Courtney Escoyne:

One would certainly hope so.

Ballerina Michaela DePrince announced that she is reclaiming her birth name, Mabinty. The Boston Ballet second soloist made the announcement as part of a new campaign with Nike, saying, “When I was adopted, they changed my name to Michaela DePrince. I wanted it at that time. I wanted to fit into that. I wanted to be very American. In the past year, I realized there was a certain part of me missing. I feel like Michaela is the kind of person I’ve become, but Mabinty is my core.”

Margaret Fuhrer:

That’s the end of our headline rundown this episode. But don’t forget to check out the Dance Media Events Calendar as well, because it has lots more information about all kinds of dance world events, all of these big season announcements that are coming. To see the full list and to add your own events to it, head to dancemediacalendar.com.

All right, now it’s time for our longer discussion segment, and we’d like to talk about Alice Robb’s new book Don’t Think, Dear, and also about the second season of the podcast The Turning. Robb’s book examines her own time as a student at SAB through a contemporary feminist lens. It has spawned a whole collection of recent thinkpieces and essays, several of them written by Rob herself, that explore how ballet training shapes not just young women’s bodies but also their minds. The new season of The Turning, which is called Room of Mirrors, looks at George Balanchine’s legacy and how it has contributed to the complexity of ballet culture.

Both of these works dig into the toxic aspects of ballet, ballet training in particular, things we’ve talked about a lot on the podcast. Both also acknowledge ballet’s sublimity and creative power and the reasons that so many of us are still, despite all its problems, in thrall to it.

Courtney, you’ve read Don’t Think, Dear, but haven’t listened to The Turning; I’m still finishing the book, but I’ve heard the podcast, so we’ll be filling in each other’s gaps here. But maybe this is a place to start: I connected very deeply with an idea that comes up in both the book and the podcast, which is that it’s really hard to see ballet clearly until you have in some way left it behind.

Courtney Escoyne:

Right. Part of that has to do, I think, with the fact that when you’re starting serious ballet training, if you’re serious about it, you’re a kid. You’re a kid. Your understanding of the world and your place in it is still actively being shaped. You’re taught these are the rules when you’re in the ballet classroom, both the implicit ones and the explicit ones, and you accept that because you’re following the rules.

And adhering to that discipline, adhering to those rules, has results. You are praised for it. You’re rewarded for it. You also have the sense, well, if you don’t take this seriously, there’s someone who will work harder, who will want it more, who would be happy to take your place. When you’re in it, and especially if you are someone who manages to be successful in it and manages to keep going, why would you question it?

Margaret Fuhrer:

Especially since ballet often attracts people who like following rules, who enjoy being told, “This is exactly what you should do and here’s exactly how to do it.” I know I was certainly that way—that was part of it, this very type A perfectionist kind of thing. They’re not necessarily naturally, like, questioners. And then having that reinforced over and over again by the entire culture that they’re living inside, as young people who are still figuring out how the world works generally, being told, “This is how it works,” they’ll latch onto that.

Courtney Escoyne:

One of the things I found really interesting, particularly in Alice Robb’s book, because we’re of a fairly similar age, reading her unpacking the ways that being a serious ballet student, how that carries out into the rest of your life and that development. Talking about, well, I wasn’t interested in dating because ballet was what I was so deeply focused on. When would I have time for that? Or I mean, if I’m focused on my appearance, it’s because it’s part of my art, even though we are living in a society and culture that has all these weird double standards about how girls approach their looks—you shouldn’t care about your looks, but also you’re going to be rewarded if you care about your looks or if you look a certain way in a specific way. And that carries over into womanhood and the patriarchy, et cetera, et cetera.

But hearing her talk about how this affects the way that she goes about dating, romantic relationships, how she presents herself, even as an adult who is no longer a dancer, I found really interesting. Because it articulated this odd tension of being a 21st century woman growing up with all these ideas around what womanhood could and should be against what ballet tells you it should be.

Margaret Fuhrer:

There was something fascinating in her book too, where she was saying that actually, especially as a young person, it was comforting in ballet class to be told, No, you should care about the way you look. In fact, we’re not even going to make that explicit. That’s just baked into all of it. There is an expectation that you present yourself a certain way.

Courtney Escoyne:

The double standard wasn’t necessarily there.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Exactly, yeah, which, now that she’s a little bit older, she also recognizes that was a problem. But when you’re living inside of it, you don’t see it those complexities as easily.

So I’ve been listening to The Turning and I’ve really, really been enjoying it. It’s extremely well done. I mean, first of all, the reporting is excellent. It includes some very candid interviews with a ton of dancers and experts who have in some way been shaped or influenced by Balanchine. I mean, anytime you get the opportunity to listen to Allegra Kent, like, run, don’t walk. She gave an incredible and very, very Allegra interview in one of the episodes.

But the episode that really got me was the sixth one, which actually focuses on the host of the show, Erika Lantz, who it turns out is a former pre-professional ballet dancer. She trained very seriously, but ended up quitting as a teenager for a variety of complicated reasons, which the episode unpacks. The person who interviews her for the episode is her sister, since she watched Erika go through this whole intense phase of her life.

Courtney, it made me cry my eyes out. It felt so intimately connected to my own training experience and half acknowledged eating disorder and body dysmorphia. And the fact that despite all of that struggling, it was still in some ways the most fulfilled I’ve ever felt. Erika’s sister at one point says something like, “Well, you had to leave ballet behind because the cost was too high for you. But at the same time, you’re still mourning it because, even though you’ve gone on to have this really successful career as a journalist, you’ve never found anything else as good. It was your great love.”

Courtney Escoyne:

Oh, I’m going to just go lie down.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Right? Right?

Courtney Escoyne:

Yep. I’m going to just go lie down. Maybe get some Kleenex before I listen to that.

Margaret Fuhrer:

It hits you fully in the gut. But I think that gets at everything we’ve been talking about so far. That complicated mixture of feelings about something is almost impossible to parse while you’re still living inside of the thing and going through the thing. It’s especially hard when the thing is ballet, which is teaching you to be quiet and obedient and not to think, dear.

Courtney Escoyne:

Me and the girls I grew up training with, we would joke like, oh, ballet isn’t a hobby, it is a lifestyle choice.

Margaret Fuhrer:

It’s a calling! Which then connects very directly to a lot of the problems happening in the professional ballet world where there’s this expectation that you will suffer for your art because it is your true love. These are things that we’ve talked about at some length on the podcast.

But having a little distance from the professional ballet pressure cooker also allows you to enjoy the practice of ballet in a different way. I want to talk about that piece that Alice wrote for Elle about the recent surge in adults taking up ballet classes, because the stakes for them are so different.

Courtney Escoyne:

One of the things that was so striking in it was she, Alice Robb, in reporting this was interviewing someone who started taking ballet as an adult and got into pointe work. Alice asked matter-of-factly about like, “Oh, how do you deal with the pain of pointe work?” And the dancer she was interviewing just very calmly was just like, “Well, if there’s pain, that means something was wrong. I would back off.” The way Alice’s reaction was just like, “Oh, that would never have occurred to me as a student.”

It was so interesting looking at it from that perspective, and it also is just this joyful reminder of there was a reason we love this thing. Because when it’s not taking over your life or creating this intense pain, whether that means psychologically or physically, it’s like nothing else. It really is. It is incredibly cool that there is this increasing openness to adult ballet students getting to actually experience that, which also in turn is important for the professional world. Just let’s talk purely economically.

Margaret Fuhrer:

They’re the patrons.

Courtney Escoyne:

They’re going to show up for this shows. They’re going to be supporting the arts because they’re invested in it.

Margaret Fuhrer:

Anyway, clearly there’s much more to talk about here—obviously, it’s a discussion that’s already spanned whole books and whole podcast seasons. In the show notes, we have links to a bunch of the articles that we’ve mentioned, also to some coverage of The Turning, and to a great Pointe magazine interview with Alice Robb. We hope you can check those out.

All right, that’s it for us this week. Thanks everyone for joining. We’ll be back in two weeks for more discussion of the news that’s moving the dance world. Keep learning, keep advocating, and keep dancing

Courtney Escoyne:

Mind how you go, friends.