Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi dance friends, and welcome to The Dance Edit Podcast. I’m Margaret Fuhrer.

Courtney Escoyne:
And I’m Courtney Escoyne.

Margaret Fuhrer:
We are editors at Dance Media, and in today’s episode, we will discuss Luke Jennings’ excellent piece about choreographer Liam Scarlett, and how his story relates to a larger culture of abuse and silence within ballet. We will talk about a Dance Magazine article that unpacks the challenges that remain for conservative religious dancers, even as the dance world works to become more inclusive, and we will get into the very epic new trailer for the West Side Story film.

Margaret Fuhrer:
First though, just a quick reminder to rate and review and subscribe to this podcast on your listening platform of choice. We always, always, always love hearing from you. And also make sure to check out The Dance Edit Extra, our new premium audio interview series, because there are now two episodes available, and they are fabulous, if we do say so ourselves: The first is with the ballet star and newly-minted author James Whiteside, and the second is with the history-making Dancing with the Stars pro Britt Stewart. The Edit Extra is actually only available on Apple Podcasts, so make sure you’re subscribing to it there. Or you can head to thedanceedit.com/podcast to find out a little more about it.

Alright, now it’s time for our weekly dance headline rundown. Let’s go.

Courtney Escoyne:
Alright. So K-pop superstars BTS made appearances at the United Nations General Assembly in New York City earlier this week as youth ambassadors. In addition to delivering a speech during a conference on climate change, poverty, and inequality that included remarks and anecdotes from young fans from around the world, the group also dropped a new performance video of their recent hit, “Permission to Dance,” which was shot at and outside the UN. So, various serious topics, but also really great dancing that came out of it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Just the best. I mean, the thought of millions of young BTS fans who are now super tuned into what’s happening at the UN General Assembly—the power of cultural ambassadorship, it’s very real.

Courtney Escoyne:
Love it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So, Monday was a big day for dance TV. The 30th season of “”Dancing with the Stars” premiered. And yes, that’s correct: It is the 30th, three zero, season.

Courtney Escoyne:
How…

Margaret Fuhrer:
I know! I know, it’s still going. It was especially exciting to see JoJo Siwa take the floor with Jenna Johnson as the show’s first same-sex partnership, of course, and hey, they also got the high score of the night, so that bodes well. And then that same evening actually, the dance drama “The Big Leap,” which follows a diverse group of hopefuls auditioning for a dance reality show, that premiered over on Fox. So lots of dance returning to the screen, as well as the stage, these days.

Courtney Escoyne:
And continuing with the dance on TV news, although taking a slight turn, the UK’s “Strictly Come Dancing” seems to already be dealing with COVID complications behind the scenes, as two or possibly three of the show’s pro dancers reportedly have not been vaccinated. This follows the news that one of the pros who had already been paired with a celebrity partner tested positive for COVID last week and will be unable to train with their partner ahead of this Saturday’s first live show as they self isolate. A spokesperson for “Strictly” stated that they would not comment on speculation regarding someone’s vaccination status, and that the production would continue to follow government guidelines. You know, big caveat here being, there’s a lot of eyebrow-raising and questions around the UK government’s guidelines with COVID, as things are getting “back to normal.”

Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, big woof, all around. In happier news, the Joffrey Ballet is adding four new dancers to its roster this season. We have Brian Bennett and Blake Kessler from the United States, Yuchan Kim from South Korea, and Miranda Silveira from Spain. And with those additions, the company now has 43 dancers from 13 countries. It is so nice to be announcing company expansions, rather than layoffs.

Courtney Escoyne:
So, so nice. And in a bit of particularly nerdy news that you knew I was going to talk about, Marvel dropped the first trailer for Disney Plus’ next superhero television series, “Hawkeye,” which looks to be following the bow-and-arrow–wielding Avenger in New York City around Christmas time. Now you don’t have to be an eagle-eyed, or dare I say, hawk-eyed fan to have caught the Broadway marquee…

Margaret Fuhrer:
Ugh. [laughter]

Courtney Escoyne:
I know, I had to do it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I’ll let it slide.

Courtney Escoyne:
So there was in the trailer a Broadway marquee for Rogers: The Musical—yes, as in Steve Rogers, AKA Captain America. We are getting an in-universe Captain America musical in the Marvel Cinematic Universe! But close inspection of what appears to be a clip showing a dance number from the musical itself reveals they got some bona fide Broadway and commercial dance performers for the show’s fictional musical. It includes alums of Hamilton, In the Heights, Newsies, Summer: The Donna Summer Musical… I didn’t need another reason to be excited for this to come out in November, but Marvel sure did give us theater and superhero loving nerds such a treat. I’m excited.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I’m so happy for you, Courtney. Look, I’ll be honest, this is not quite the type of news that would normally make the cut for the headline rundown, but Courtney made it clear that she would be discussing it regardless. And you know what? I’m happy to indulge geekiness. The world runs on geekiness. You do you.

Courtney Escoyne:
Thank you, I appreciate that Margaret. And also I think it’s great, cause this was shot during the Broadway shutdown, and so these are performers who got work, getting to do musical theater.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, and hopefully good movie money, fingers crossed. Alright. We are closing out the headline rundown today with an obituary for Jane Powell, star of some of the great MGM musicals. She died last Thursday at age 92. Powell’s big break was in Royal Wedding alongside Fred Astaire, in which the two of them played a brother and sister song and dance act—she was basically playing the role of Astaire’s real-life sister, Adele. But she’s probably best known for her starring role in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, with its fabulous choreography by Michael Kidd. What a legacy. And actually I think both of those musicals are available to stream right now on multiple platforms, definitely on YouTube. Please watch them.

So for our first longer discussion segment today, we want to talk about a story that a lot of the dance world has been talking about for the past week, because it is both an essential read and a horrifying read. So in the London Review of Books, writer Luke Jennings took an in-depth look at learned behaviors and corporate silence in the ballet world and the part they played in the story of choreographer Liam Scarlett, who died earlier this year, following a series of accusations of inappropriate behavior over the past decade. Jennings focused on The Royal Ballet and its school, but honestly, a lot of the dancer quotes in this piece felt like they could have come from members of nearly any major company, or honestly from major sports organizations too. And at the heart of it all is the idea that in much of ballet trauma is intergenerational: Teachers and directors hurt dancers because that is what was done to them by their teachers and directors, and then larger ballet institutions find ways to obscure or deny the part that they play in that cycle of trauma.

It’s an absolute doozy of a story—I felt like I had to sort of read it through my fingers. But everyone should read it.

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah, not the least because Luke Jennings is a fantastic dance writer and reporter. There were a couple of really key salient points that I wanted to point out from this doozy of a story. The first is that every single source that Luke Jennings interviewed for the story asked for anonymity, because no matter how removed they were from The Royal Ballet and The Royal Ballet School, there was concerns about possible repercussions about publicly talking about their experiences. The second was a quote that was getting circulated a lot on Twitter from a corps member who also requested to be anonymous, who was at The Royal Ballet School, roughly contemporaneously with Liam Scarlett. And this corps member said that Scarlett was “passed around like Manon. Everyone knew about it. Everything Liam was later accused of was done to him. It was learned behavior.”

Margaret Fuhrer:
It breaks the heart to hear that. I do want to clarify that the piece did not mean to, and we do not mean to, belittle or undermine any of the claims of Scarlett’s accusers here. Jennings is contextualizing bad behavior, he’s not excusing it. But oh man, that quote.

And the piece does an especially good job articulating why the company’s response was so frustrating to so many of us in the dance world, this whole, suspending Scarlett, but also maintaining, there were “no matters to pursue” after the investigation into his behavior. I’m just going to read Jennings’ quote there, because he gets it perfectly: “He had been found innocent and guilty at the same time, while the Royal Ballet, by some sleight of hand, had absolved itself of all responsibility.” I mean, that’s it.

Courtney Escoyne:
That’s it in a nutshell.

Margaret Fuhrer:
And it sounds so much like New York City Ballet’s statement following the allegations against Peter Martins, too, the company saying that its investigations “did not corroborate” the allegations, but then Martins left the company anyway, and we from the outside might never know the whole story. In both cases, if there was nothing wrong, why can’t we talk about that openly? And if there was something wrong, why can’t we talk about that openly? And if the truth is somewhere in the middle, which seems like the most likely scenario, why can’t we talk about that openly? We just so desperately need more transparency, more air, around these decision-making processes.

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah, and silence only ever protects the abusers at the end of the day, because that silence is what allows that kind of behavior to flourish. It’s what allows it to go without being reported. And it’s what creates the environments in which victims and survivors feel like they can’t step forward and report it without severe negative repercussions.

Margaret Fuhrer:
And the thing is at this point, it seems like greater openness would probably also be beneficial for the institution’s reputation, which seems like the thing that insiders are trying to protect here.

Of course we should say that it’s not like we know all the answers. These are huge, complicated problems that are impossible to grasp fully from the outside. But please do read Jennings’ piece. We’ve linked it in the show notes. It does cast light where little light has been cast before. It’s invaluable.

Whew, that was a lot. Okay. In our second segment today, we want to discuss a recent Dance Magazine story that gets into what life is like as a conservative religious dancer. And as we’ve talked about quite a bit, working to improve diversity, equity and inclusion has become a priority for many dance leaders, especially recently. But for the most part, the US dance community is a pretty secular place. And sometimes dancers who are Muslims or Orthodox Jews or evangelical Christians, for example, can find it difficult to practice their faith while making a career in dance. This piece did a good job sharing some of their perspectives.

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah, and I think what you were getting on a little bit in your intro, Margaret, and something that really comes to the fore and that I was thinking about a lot reading this, is there’s this kind of fascinating and strange dichotomy that has come into play. And I think particularly over the last few years where the dance world tends to be very secular and tries to be an open and accepting place on the outside, nevertheless, doesn’t always feel accepting to people who have religious practices and religious beliefs. And some of that can be linked to the way that being conservatively Christian has become aligned with also being conservative politically and how very, very, very not in favor of that the dance world has been over the last several years in particular, things have become very inflamed in that way.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. When religion gets tangled up in politics, that’s almost always bad news for art generally.

Courtney Escoyne:
Generally speaking, yeah. Which is frankly something that’s been going back centuries, just in different ways.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm. Old stories.

Courtney Escoyne:
It’s old stories being retold again and again with new technologies. And so I think it’s something that I think maybe a lot of us haven’t necessarily thought about the idea that oh, okay, we’re trying to make the dance world a welcoming place for everyone, regardless of gender identity, sexual orientation, all of those things. But if we can do that, can we also make it a place that is welcoming and safe for people who do have religious beliefs, who do have religious practices that maybe don’t necessarily jive? Which—I think it maybe comes from a place of, those of us who are from places where religion, a particular religious belief has been used to shut out certain sectors of the population—I am particularly talking to my queer fam here—the response to finding out that someone has a religious practice is often going to be, oh no, am I going to be safe around this person? Which is not always the case.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You know, it’s interesting too, because dance is a spiritual thing for many artists who are involved in it. It’s a transcendent experience that connects us to a higher plane. It seems like there are natural connections between dance and religion, that one would hope would make dance a welcoming place and empathetic place for religious artists. But it’s true, when we’re talking about DEI initiatives, you have to include faith in those initiatives.

Courtney Escoyne:
Well, and also I think particularly in the United States, oftentimes federal holidays and holidays and calendars that companies follow align with the Christian calendar. Whereas if you’re a Jewish artist who wants to take off following Passover or for Shabbat, or if you’re a Muslim artist who needs to fast during Ramadan, it’s not necessarily built into the performance schedule or the rehearsal schedule or the cultural consciousness to make that easy for you to be able to do that. It’s extra steps that have to be taken on the part of the artists. And so, how can we be more conscious of that and think about that and make our spaces more welcoming, so that everyone can show up and practice both dance and their religious beliefs in an authentic and generous way?

Margaret Fuhrer:
In the Dance Magazine story, writer Rebecca Ritzel does a really great job sort of teasing out the complexities of the subject, and she talks to a whole range of conservative religious dancers about their experiences in the art form. So please do give it a read. We’ll link it in the show notes.

Alright, last up today, we’ve got to talk about the new West Side Story trailer. It’s the first official trailer for the upcoming Steven Spielberg film, although there’s been a teaser—maybe two teasers, am I getting that wrong?

Courtney Escoyne:
Seems about right.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So it dropped last week. It actually even aired during the Emmys on Sunday night—a lot of people have seen it. It is a full two minutes long, and it gives us a few more peeks at Justin Peck’s choreography and the performances by some of our dance favorites, like Ariana DeBose and David Alvarez and Rita Moreno, who’s a national treasure. It’s also noteworthy for what is not in it, or rather who is not in it much.

It definitely hits every single one of its marks. I was full on ugly crying, watching it—Spielberg knows exactly what he is doing. But my personal reaction to it was also a little complicated, and I think some other people shared that feeling too.

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah, I think starting with the positives here, one, the women in this movie, I am showing up for the women in this movie. Rachel Zegler sounds amazing. Ariana DeBose is serving looks and moves and she’s a superstar and she’s just going to be more of one after this. And don’t even get me started on Rita Moreno, oh my gosh. Living for it. That’s incredible. The cinematography, exquisite. The production design, so good. This is a Spielberg film, it’s got the budget to show it. It looks fan-freaking-tastic with two snaps and a smile, to quote Tyce Diorio years and years and years ago on “So You Think You Can Dance.”

Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, that‘s a call back, my goodness! [laughter] Yeah, I’m with you. I mean, for the women especially, for almost—nearly every single member of the cast, even these tiny glimpses we’re getting their performance just makes me so much more excited to see the whole thing. The one shot of Ariana DeBose with her eyes glistening, walking away from something that may or may not have been that devastating rape scene—I was already crying, then I was crying harder. It’s so much.

It’s interesting to me that Spielberg has said he’s not remaking Jerome Robbins movie, this is his adaptation of the stage play. But it is almost startling—and I think I said this when we were talking about an earlier teaser too—it’s startling just how strongly the colors and the costumes and the cinematography and to an extent the location choices evoke the older film. The homage is so, so clear. And from the little that we’ve seen of the choreography, it seems like that might be the case there, too. It’s going to feel super-duper Robbins, probably with some smart updates, because Justin Peck is a smart choreographer.

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah. Which I will also say, and I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, when they said Justin Peck was doing the choreography of this movie, I was like, yes, correct choice. As all of his work at New York City Ballet has shown, he is the clear spiritual successor as a choreographer to Jerome Robbins in terms of the way the dancers in his ballets relate to each other on stage and the way he approaches sneaker ballets and incorporates jazz influences, et cetera, et cetera. I could go on for ages about this. So, very smart choice of choreographer for this.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, he understands that from the inside out, that whole way of moving.

So starting to tilt a little bit negative now. The Hollywood Reporter called the trailer “grandiose,” which I thought was the perfect bit of shade, just the tiniest bit of shade. Because it is a huge grand project, it deserves a big epic trailer, and yet it is advertising its own greatness in a way that makes me feel vaguely anxious it’s not going to live up to its own hype.

And also, we have to talk about…

Courtney Escoyne:
Ansel Elgort.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Ansel Elgort. Because he’s almost not in the trailer. You don’t hear him sing. I think he says three lines. Is that deliberate, given that last year, a woman alleged that he sexually assaulted her when she was 17?

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah, well, I know I saw some comments to the effect of, “Hey, when the Kevin Spacey news broke a couple of years ago, they laid down cash to do reshoots in a film that was coming out so that Kevin Spacey was no longer in it. Why couldn’t we do that with Ansel Elgort?” Which, I think studio finances, contracts, finances particularly with the pandemic, I think there’s a number of reasons why that probably was not the choice that was made. But it is fascinating to see a trailer cut where one of the leads is virtually not present whatsoever. Because I think what’s intriguing is that the people who are paying attention to that and who are going to notice that are the ones who already know, “Oh, well, Ansel Elgort’s in this. What the hell?” Whereas the average audience who maybe doesn’t know about all of that is not going to see this trailer and…

Margaret Fuhrer:
…and be like, “Where’s Tony?”

Courtney Escoyne:
Yeah. It wouldn’t affect their perception of whether or not they were going to go see it. So it’s like an attempt at trying to have your cake and eat it too, I think. Maybe, I don’t know.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, I think it’s just the sense that we’re all rooting so hard for this film. Just don’t mess it up! Don’t mess it up, people, please.

Courtney Escoyne:
Well, and here’s the thing, is that it’s grandiose, yes. But I feel if anyone, of all our filmmakers, I’m kind of like, you know what, it’s Spielberg. He’s got the track record. If anyone can take a swing like this… And also Tony Kushner did the screenplay, which is nuts! I forgot about that. But it’s Tony Kushner!

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, and I felt like you could actually hear a little bit of that in the trailer too. It’s especially in—I think there’s a line that Riff got, that sounded like Tony Kushner trying to play into some Trump-era themes—the line about, “I wake up to everything I know either getting sold or wrecked or taken over by people I don’t like.” And I was like, oh, that sounds like Kushner. And that sounds smart. That sounds like the kind of update that might make the film feel relevant in a way that it needs to, to sort of justify its own existence today.

Courtney Escoyne:
Well, and especially because going back to the original film, the portrayal of Puerto Ricans in that film—mm-mm (negative).

Margaret Fuhrer:
Righting some historical wrongs, yeah.

Courtney Escoyne:
Fingers crossed. Fingers so crossed, especially because we’re rooting for the performers for the most part so hard, the theater people in this, the dancers in this, we are in your corner rooting for you so hard.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, that is about it. And that is it for us this week too. Thank you everyone for joining us. We will be back next week for more discussion of the news that’s moving the dance world. Keep learning, keep advocating and keep dancing.

Courtney Escoyne:
Mind how you go friends.