Hello, dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. Welcome to this first Dance Edit Extra episode of 2022!

We are kicking off the new year in high style: we’ve got an interview with the wonderful Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell. Linda-Denise became artistic director of Hubbard Street Dance Chicago last spring, and that was news that a lot of people in the dance world were very excited about. She actually danced for a time with Hubbard Street before going on to have a long and celebrated career as a performer with Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. After retiring from the Ailey stage, she became a professor of dance at Towson University, where she helped establish AileyCamp Baltimore—she really built that AileyCamp program from the ground up. She also served on faculty at the Baltimore School for the Arts, which brought her full-circle, since she trained at the school as a teen.

So, Linda-Denise brought a wealth of experience as a performer and educator with her to Hubbard Street. She is also the first woman and the first person of color to direct the company. But she came on board at a time when Hubbard Street was really struggling, and had been for several years, even before the pandemic cut its budget in half. The company had closed its affiliated school, disbanded its second company, and sold its longtime home before Linda-Denise’s arrival. So she faced significant challenges from her very first day on the job.

She is very up front about those challenges in this conversation. But, as you’ll hear, she is also full of hope, and full of ideas, and full of—crucially, I think—good humor. Almost a year into her tenure, she has a confident and thoughtful vision for where Hubbard Street is headed, and what she wants her legacy at the company to be. Here is Linda-Denise.

[pause]

Margaret Fuhrer:
It is my great pleasure now to welcome Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell, the new artistic director of Hubbard Street Dance Chicago, to the podcast. Hi, how are you doing?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I’m well, how are you?

Margaret Fuhrer:
I’m good. Thank you so much for joining. And actually I’m realizing, I said “new” director, but that was a little misleading. You’re actually about to hit your one year anniversary in March, right?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
God, you say that and, what? I’m just realizing that. You see how time kind of does a doozy on you, right?

Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, totally. I know. Especially this weird pandemic time, where it’s fast but it’s slow, and you never know what day or month it is.

Well, happy almost-anniversary. And let’s dive right in. I think most people in the dance world know you from your beautiful performing career with Alvin Ailey, since you were there for 13 years, but you actually began your professional dance life at Hubbard Street. Can you talk a little about that?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Yeah. A lot of people don’t know that, or they were shocked. “What? Why was she at Hubbard Street?” I was!

So, from 1989 to 1992, I was a member of Hubbard Street Dance Chicago. Lou Conte, the founder and an artistic director at the time, hired me in conjunction with Claire Bataille, his associate artistic director. She was the one that said, “Hire her.” She elbowed him, I think. And I performed for three years with the company. I was in my late teens to early twenties at the time and had the opportunity to dance a wide array of choreographer,s from David Parsons, Twyla Tharp, Danny Ezralow, Margo Sappington. So, I did a lot of different works, and we did a lot of touring all over the United States. It was the first time I got to tour internationally. We went to the Netherlands, went to Holland, did the Holland Dance Festival, which is the first time we connected with Jiří Kylián. And we did a lot in Germany and in Poland. So yeah, I had wonderful first experiences with Hubbard Street.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And I think you’ve started to answer this question already, but how would you describe what drew you to Hubbard Street back then as a dancer? What was the company’s sort of special sauce at that point?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
They were just excellent. When you saw them, I think what really drew you in is how precise—I mean, Lou was a stickler and still is, we talk to him now, he’s still a stickler for details, all in the details. And the dancers didn’t look alike at all, but they moved as one and they moved dynamically. Their dynamics were incredible.

And I had a member of the company, Joseph Patrick, that was his stage name—Joseph Pasetto. He was a graduate of the Baltimore School for the Arts, which is where I went to high school. And so, he would come back and teach master classes. That was my first exposure. And his father actually rented a bus for a bunch of us high school kids to take to see the performance of Hubbard Street and fill it out. So, that was the first time I saw the company and took class with Joey. I kind of knew the caliber, even in my teens. So when it came time to audition for the company, I had already known about them. I’d seen them, I’d taken the classes. Just to have that opportunity to be a member of the company, I already knew what kind of excellent work they were doing.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You were already sold. So, I feel a little bad sort of fast forwarding through your whole arc as a dancer, because you’re such an extraordinary performer. But in an attempt to keep to our podcast timeframe, let’s talk about your life after the conclusion of your performing career. Once you retired from the stage, you became this really highly regarded dance educator at Towson and Baltimore School of the Arts. What do you love and value most about teaching? Was that a direction that you had known from earlier on that you eventually wanted to go?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I would say yes. And it started, I think, in the Ailey company. We did a lot of outreach. We did a lot of many performances and master classes where I would kind of get dispatched to different communities and schools to teach, which I loved. And I also… Masazumi Chaya threw me to the fire my first year in the company, and said, “Can you teach company class?” I’m sorry. Me? Really? And I had to warm up people like Desmond Richardson and Renee Robinson. I’m sorry, I’m supposed to teach them what, exactly? Right? [laughter]

So, I loved it. I loved doing a lesson plan, like what are we going to learn? Or, what am I going to really bring home today? Or what are we performing today and how can I bring that into the class so we can work on it? And how can I encourage, even these dancers who are at this elite level, how can I send them some encouragement? Right? Along with some kind of words of wisdom. Me, words of wisdom to them—insane.

But I think that started the bug of me teaching, and teaching is a whole different attention draw. Instead of… The performer is really focusing on the instrument. The person doing the work, you, that person in the mirror. And when you’re teaching, it’s the 50 people in front of you, and how can you get the information out to them so that they can make positive changes in what they’re doing. And so, I immediately felt the gratification of that. People coming to me saying, “That was such a great class. I got warm. I felt balanced. I felt calm.” That was addictive as well.

So, when I rounded out my career performing, so to speak—with Ailey, because I still will perform if you ask me! Anyway, it was almost a natural art. Performing became an opportunity for me. “Would you like to teach for the university?” “Sure.” And just have it seeing instant changes in students and giving them information so that they could better their practice no matter what, how they approached the work, no matter whether they thought they liked ballet before or didn’t, I felt instant gratification from that. That felt like a calling for me.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Dancers who become teachers—I feel like that’s sort of a common refrain. It’s that widening of the lens, from super, super focused on yourself, and then suddenly outwards to the whole room.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You know, Ailey and Hubbard Street, they’re two very different companies, but they’re not entirely different. Where would you say are the overlaps in terms of artistic priorities and mission?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
So, the mission is, of course, to entertain and to take the audience on a journey with both of them. That’s what kind of draws me in to both of them. And I think at the core, it’s excellence. Both companies were kind of at the top of what they were doing, and excellence was a throughline, and it was a requirement. You couldn’t be the “okey-doke” on stage, right? [laughter] We’re doing this and we’re doing it at a high caliber and at a high level, and I feel like that requirement of me as a professional, that’s what drew me to both of them. Seeing, not just really great dance, but just extraordinary dance. So, that’s where they have their overlap.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And was being an artistic director something you knew that you were interested in? Was it a dream of yours?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I think I knew it, but didn’t know it. I think it was kind of in the back of my mind. One of the courses that I taught at Towson University was called Company, believe it or not. It was called Dance Company. For 16 years I was the artistic director of the Towson University Dance Company. So, I was in charge of auditioning the dancers, coaching them, curating the choreographers that would come in, putting the programs together. So, I was doing it in a smaller scale.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You were already doing it, yeah.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I was already doing it, and I loved it. Because all of the things… The teaching was also rolled into that, as well. I was teaching the dancers and then also picking the works.

Excuse my dog. I have a boxer that has a toy, and so if you hear kind of a Chewbacca sound… I apologize.

Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s okay. A little ambiance. [laughter]

So, tell me about how you ended up coming to Hubbard Street as director. Was that an obvious “yes” for you? Did it take some convincing?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
In COVID, I think this is the time where a lot of people have been reflecting on their careers, their career paths. “Am I doing what I am really supposed to be doing, or is there more? Can I be doing more?” And I don’t think I had that on my menu, right? I didn’t have that, “The next artistic director position that opens up, I’m going for it.” I don’t think that was on my radar, but it just happened. I’m scrolling through Facebook and that job opportunity popped up. It dawned on me, “Hey, you know what? That might be a really wonderful career move for you.” Something that encompasses all of the things that you’re already doing, but at another level.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. I mean, that director search was happening at a time when Hubbard Street was undergoing big, and frankly kind of scary, changes, which was partly, of course, thanks to the pandemic. But, really, the company struggles predated the pandemic, too. How was the state of the organization described to you when you were first coming on board?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I think it was described with total transparency. Going into all my interviews, it’s like, “Look, let’s give you a background or a history on what’s been going on.” I really appreciate the executive director, Dave McDermott, and the entire search committee on the board, saying, “Okay, look. We’re going to tell you straight out what’s been happening. Of course, there are things that are in the news, but there are things that are not in the news that you should know about.” How the staff had been paired down, and how the buildings were sold, and we’re actually searching for a new home.

So, all of those things were actually laid out to me. And they didn’t scare me. A person coming from trying to develop a program like AileyCamp Baltimore from nothing, I’ve had to raise the money, meet with people, and beg, and write grants, and all those things, and kind of get them going to see… Because they were necessary for the community and have them become a success.

The Hubbard Street legacy and all the things that it’s done in its past, that propelled me. If we get back to the core of that, I think we’re going to be okay. If we can ride the scary time of uncertainty and we get back to the excellence at it’s core and why audiences come to see us, I think we’ll be okay. I really saw it as not a huge challenge, but a huge opportunity. So, I looked at it with a different lens.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. So it’s March 1st, 2021. It’s your first day on the job at Hubbard Street. What were your very first priorities, the most urgent things you wanted to address as artistic director?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I wanted to meet the dancers. They’re putting their trust in me as far as the direction of the company and where we’re going and how they’re going to be fed artistically, right? Should they even stay? To me, that was the priority.

Right away I had contract talks. Big ones. It was crazy.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, wow.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Yeah. “Hi, how are you? Are you staying? Are you going to sign your new contract?”

Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s so intense.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
“Let’s just get right to it.” I think it really opened the door for dialogue. It was that first one-on-one meetings and I got a chance to get to know them. What do you like to be called? What do you not like to be called? What kind of works do you see yourself doing? Which kind of choreographers do you like to see the company doing? You know what I mean? So, I can get to see what their movement practices were. And it was fascinating. And I wouldn’t trade that moment for the world, because it really was an opportunity for all of us to get to know each other, and I kind of knew where I stood with them on a personal and professional note.

But, of course, to meet all of the staff and see how I could be of service, that’s my thing. How can I help you be the best that you can be? I think that’s what my interest is across the board, whether it’s from a marketing standpoint, or whether it’s to the dancers or even the executive director. How can I help serve this organization so that it can be the best it can be?

Margaret Fuhrer:
So, I know you talked to everybody across the organization, but I’m interested in those first conversations you were having with the dancers, specifically. What was weighing on them? What were they concerned about? What were they excited about? What were they hopeful about?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
I think, like the entire organization, there was a sense of fear. They had just gone through so much change with the sale of the building. And then COVID hit and it’s like, “Oh my God. Are we stable economically? Are we going to have a job? Then, there’s this new director. She might fire everyone and bring in all of her new dancers, or she might try to change this into Ailey III, or something.” So, there’s so much uncertainty as to where I’m going artistically.

And I got that. I just tried to put people at ease and remind them that this is also my legacy. Hubbard Street is a part of my background. People just know me for Ailey, and so they’re like, “Oh yeah? She was a member of Hubbard Street?” So, I do have a connection to the history of the company and I’m not interested in turning it into something that it hasn’t been in the past. I’m just bringing new elements to it and just making the lens broader on who comes to see us and who people see on stage and how they relate to them on stage.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk recently about accessibility, in multiple senses, in the dance world, about making sure that this art form feels welcoming to more types of people. How does that factor into your vision for the company? Can you talk a little more about that?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Well, totally. From a dancer who was educated—I’m from the inner city of Baltimore, and I never had ballet lessons at five years old. I don’t even think I was interested in ballet at five. I started when I was 14, and the only access I had to dance at the time was at local performing arts high school, the Baltimore School for the Arts. So, that’s where I got my training. That was my exposure to dance. If it wasn’t free and if it wasn’t accessible and if it didn’t make performances free for me, I wouldn’t be here. Quite simply, I would not be here.

I know how important that is for all kinds of audiences to have an in. To have some sort of way in to see the work, to be interested in the work. Right? That’s the only way that the work continues. We can’t just keep talking to the same people. We have to broaden the audience. And so I think it’s really important for a broad sector of the community to see themselves. Do you see yourself represented on stage? And can you envision—is that speaking to you?

I started taking ballet at the Baltimore School for the Arts, but I never plugged into my classicism, so to speak, until I saw the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. And then I went, “Oh, that’s why they want me to straighten my knees. Got it.” “Oh, that’s why they want me to point my feet. Got it.” It didn’t make sense to me until I saw my myself on stage.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, and it seems like, basically since the pandemic, everyone’s had this time to reflect. It seems like more of the concert dance world has now at least expressed a commitment to those kinds of ideas, to making things more accessible, to showing more diversity on stage. One way that we’ve seen that is that a growing number of historically white-led dance organizations, Hubbard Street included, have been seeking out BIPOC leaders, seeking out female leaders, finally moving away from the white male artistic director trope. On the one hand, that’s really encouraging, and on the other, a lot of these new leaders, including you, are coming into these incredibly challenging situations—especially with the pandemic happening. You’re not exactly set up for success, necessarily. So, as someone who’s living that, what are your thoughts on all of it?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Yeah. Right? You kind of feel like the cleanup woman, a little bit. Right? Think about that song. No, I just see opportunity. I see it because I haven’t had the opportunity before. It’s a lot of work, but I don’t think I’m a stranger to it. I’m not afraid of it. The work doesn’t make me feel like I want to run away. Not at all. I’m running towards it and I’m not seeing it as, “Oh my God. It’s not going to be successful. Go away.” No. This is it. I think this is a prime opportunity to make it something of my own. We’re down to a smaller staff, building the staff back up and picking people, and choosing works that we’re doing. It’s really a wonderful opportunity. It’s not like we’re at the top of everything and everything is running well and I bring in these new ideas. It might not be as well received.

I think it’s just fate that it’s happening this way, and it’s kind of beautiful. Can I say beautiful and COVID at the same time? It’s a beautiful moment where the company, the whole organization, is kind of looking inward to see, are we doing what we say we are supposed to be doing? Are we holding true to our mission? Are we bringing the kinds of audiences that we want to bring in and are we going about it the right way? So, it’s a fantastic time. Yeah, it is challenging, but I’m not running from it at all.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Speaking of being able to make the company your own: Often when a new director comes in, they’re sort of locked into programming that their predecessor chose. But that wasn’t the case for you, right? Did you have sort of a blank slate for this first season of programming?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Well, I had pieces that were in licensing, right? I had like, “What do you think about these pieces? Do you want to continue? We have two more years with this piece or five more years with that.” And so, I could pick. I could say, “I really am gravitating towards this work. I love this work. Let’s keep this work.” Or, “You know what? Let’s leave this work alone because I see us going in a new direction.” I didn’t feel any sort of pressure. “You have to keep this one. You have to.” It was no pressure at all. I thank the organization for that. That’s scary, to have the courage to pick a new leader and actually go with her. Yeah. That is insane and scary. I thank the organization for having that courage to select me and go with me on this awesome journey.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. All the way in, not halfway in. I’m especially interested in the world premieres that you’ve commissioned. Because you had Jermaine Maurice Spivey’s The Seen, which debuted this fall. And then in the spring, you’ve got stuff coming up from Darrell Grand Moultrie and Amy Hall Garner, which is so exciting. Why did you think these voices in particular were important for Hubbard Street audiences and Hubbard Street dancers to experience?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Well, number one, I have relationships with all of those choreographers. I have a relationship with Jermaine Maurice Spivey since high school. He and I are from Baltimore, he graduated from the Baltimore School for the Arts—but years apart. He’s much younger than I am. But I remember always going back and… it’s my alma mater, so I would go back and teach master classes, career talks and things like that. I remember following this exquisite being through his career, and him going on to Juilliard, and all of his works in Europe, and dancing with multiple companies in Europe, and then becoming this fantastic artist with Crystal Pite, and then he’s just branched off into this… He’s a star, basically. He moves and finds movement invention in a way that is so unique.

When I spoke to all of the dancers at the beginning of the year, one name that was [ubiquitous] was Jermaine Spivey. I was like, “Oh! See? Look at fate. Look at fate, again.” I wanted to bring Jermaine in right away, because that’s such a unique voice. Choreographically, he hasn’t done a lot of work, but I love the work that he has done and it’s giving him an opportunity to craft something very unique on us. That’s one reason why Jermaine.

Now, Darrell and Amy. Darrell and Amy have set works on the Towson University Dance Company, so I’ve known of their work. A lot of New Yorkers know of their work. Darrell has set work on almost everybody.

Margaret Fuhrer:
He’s been everywhere!

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
He is so prolific. But not Hubbard Street. How is that possible? How has he been on everybody’s roster except for Hubbard Street? So right away, we got to experience Darrell. We have to. And what can he create on these dancers? I think that’s another thing that’s so unique, is that the Hubbard Street dancers are a breed in and of themselves. The way that they digest movement. They see movement and they go right in. They don’t adhere to preferences like, “Oh, I like to move this way. And I don’t like to move…” I don’t see preferences. They just dive into the work. And so, how do these exquisite artists inspire Darrell? He’s already one of those choreographers that’s so creative. They have so much creative juice, what does he see on them? That’s the going to be extraordinary. Heads up. That’s going to be something to watch.

Amy is… Okay, here’s my first experience with Amy. Amy is a female choreographer of color. I’m just going to say that off the bat. And the first time my students had a chance to work with her, that jaw dropped and it wasn’t because she had a cape on and she did something extraordinary, but she led the room and she stood up and just created out of her being. “Okay, let’s try… That’s not going to work. Let’s do this.” Her creativity and her energy, and her knowledge of craft, and how she kind of just jumps in and she’s hands on with creating the work, is inspiring. Just to have someone like that in front of the room—the company members have to experience her. And she’s such a musical choreographer. She always picks really great music, and she knows how to kind of swirl the energy of the dancers around the music. So, that’s why I selected those artists.

And Aszure Barton, I’m just going to say those two words. Aszure Barton! I’ve been a fan of hers for years. Just the ability to have her come in and just stand in the room with us is a blessing.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Oh, and BUSK is such… I mean, that piece gets you in the gut. It’s like, oh my gosh.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
That’s why I chose… I said, “You know what? This group of dancers with that work? It’s going to knock it out of the park.” And that they did.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Are there other works or artists that you’re especially eager to bring in going forward? Who’s on your dream list?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Oh my lord. There are just so many. Rennie Harris? Yeah. Some hip-hop, which we have never seen on Hubbard Street. All those types of genres. Maybe something a little bit more Afrocentric, West African tinge, but also keeping our roots, keeping our jazzy roots. The company was really founded in jazz.

Margaret Fuhrer:
It was a jazz company. Yeah.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
People forget that. What’s wrong with jazz? What is wrong with it?

Margaret Fuhrer:
We need more jazz in the dance world.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
We need more jazz. And my predecessors, Glenn Edgerton and Jim Vincent, they made really powerful strides with European choreographers. We shouldn’t throw those out either. We should try to keep… That’s the beautiful thing about Hubbard Street, is that it continues to grow. You don’t want it to grow and then chop off and ignore one section of the history. You want to embody all of it and continue to grow outwards.

Margaret Fuhrer:
That seems like the throughline of your vision, is always expanding the circle outwards, which is beautiful.

All right, here’s a massive question. Actually, it’s two massive questions.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Oh god.

Margaret Fuhrer:
How would you describe the larger state of contemporary dance today? And then, how do you envision Hubbard Street’s place within that world?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Oh my god. Yeah, that is loaded. Here’s the thing, contemporary… I always tell people contemporary means “now,” and so I would hope… And it’s so hard because during COVID I don’t know what other people are doing in the theaters, but we had the opportunity to share through Zoom. It seems like inclusivity is the name of the game. Right? It’s not just the contemporary dance companies, it seems like it’s the classical ones, too. Right? There’s so many blurred lines in between, and so many blurred lines across techniques. Right?

To me, it’s all movement, isn’t it? One of the beautiful things about the dancers at Hubbard Street is how they don’t approach dance with those lines of what dance is. I’m hoping that we all reconsider the possibilities of dance. What is dance? What is a beautiful work? What is a beautiful dancer? What is that? What kind of company are we? We’re contemporary. What does that mean? Do we only do works of Jiri Kylian or Ohad Naharin? Who else is in that voice? Right? What other voices are important? So, I’m hoping that’s happening across the board.

Margaret Fuhrer:
All right. I’m finishing with another massive question, but you’ve already started to answer it, so it’s really just sort of pulling the threads together. What kind of legacy do you hope to leave at Hubbard Street?

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
First of all, I hope that I am doing the legacy of the company proud. Right? That I am honoring the past while I’m moving to the future, as opposed to ignoring the past.

So, I want to honor alumni. I want to bring it all in as a party. It’s all good. Right? I hope that I bring in a more lens of diversity, meaning the company has always had dances of color in it, but how do we celebrate that? How do we celebrate our diversity? What ways can we celebrate it so that, like I said before, the audience sees itself, the public sees a modicum of themselves on stage through the choreographers that come in, the dances that we do? Somewhere we’re touching somebody and that there is something for everyone across the board.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I feel like the whole dance community is rooting for you and rooting for Hubbard Street so hard.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Thank you. Thank you! And I appreciate everyone’s support. I really do.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So, in the show notes, we’ve got links with more information about Hubbard Street’s spring series, RE/CONNECT, which is running this March at the Museum of Contemporary Art Chicago. You can get tickets now. And a big merde for all of it.

Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell:
Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

[pause]

A great big thank-you to Linda-Denise—and to her dog, who had so much to say. I wish we had a video component, because he is just the cutest. As promised, we have a link in the show notes with more information about Hubbard Street’s spring series, and we’ve also got links to the Hubbard Street Instagram account and to Linda-Denise’s personal Instagram account so you can give them a follow.

Thanks to all of you for subscribing to The Dance Edit Extra. See you back here in two weeks for another episode. And happy 2022, everyone!