Hello dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. Welcome to another episode of The Dance Edit Extra!

Today we have a guest who has seen the dance world, and just the world period, from so many different angles. Alicia Graf Mack was an extraordinarily gifted dancer—her lines, those gorgeous lines, are seared into a lot of our memories. She did not have the easiest professional career, and you’ll hear her talk about that a bit, but over the course of it she performed with Dance Theatre of Harlem and Complexions and Alonzo King LINES Ballet and Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. She also has impressive academic credentials—a history degree from Columbia, a masters in nonprofit management. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with her in yet another mode, writer mode; she is a beautiful and insightful dance writer. And since retiring from performance, she’s become a respected educator. She is currently director of the dance division at The Juilliard School. And she’s brought all of the accumulated knowledge of her many experiences to that very high-profile, very challenging job.

Alicia is clearly so inspired by the young students she works with every day, which I think is one of the signs of a truly great educator—someone who sees the job as a two-way street, with everyone the studio realizing that they have things to learn from each other. I hope you enjoy hearing her perspective on some of the challenges facing dance education today, and on how we can make the world of higher ed dance more inclusive, and more diverse in multiple senses. Here she is.

[pause]

Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi, Alicia! Thank you so much for coming on The Dance Edit Extra today.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Thank you for having me! This is very exciting.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I know. It’s sort of… we were just saying before we started recording, it’s sort of like a mini reunion, because we worked together several years ago on a few different projects. But since then, I mean, you’ve had major career changes, you’ve had babies, there have been huge shifts in the dance scene itself. It’s a very different world than it was last time we talked.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yes, that is true. Yeah. I think it was around 2014 and that was the year that my life really changed. In 2014, I retired from Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater and from dancing full time. And I had my son, Jay Mack, in 2015, and I had Laila in 2016. And I’ve worked at three different schools. And the third one being, Juilliard. So, it’s been a whirlwind, but in a good way.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Well, actually, so that’s a good way into my first question, which is about how you had this remarkable and really varied career before you came to Juilliard. So, I know this is a big question, but can you talk about how all those different experiences helped prepare you for this job at Juilliard?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Sure. So, in many interviews and conversations with people, I’ve talked about my sort of struggle with an autoimmune disease that I have called, ankylosing spondylitis. And I learned that I had this disease in 1999. I was around 21 years old and I had no idea how it was going to affect my career, but it did in really difficult ways. So, I was dancing with Dance Theatre of Harlem, and was performing at a very high level. And then I had to leave dance because of injuries and being sick. And I eventually went to Columbia University. I studied history because I didn’t know what I would be good at. And I thought, I love to read, and I’m a decent writer, so at least I won’t flunk out of school.

And somehow, I landed an internship at JPMorgan Chase, they were merged with Chase at the time, in corporate marketing. And within that department, they had a philanthropic giving, small division. And I knew that I wanted to work for that division, because they gave money to arts organizations, arts education, all around the city and all around the world. I did an internship in London as well, where they did the same thing. And so I thought that’s what I was going to be doing upon graduation.

But—I won’t tell you all the stories, but basically the dance bug hit me, or bit me, in my senior year of college. And I decided I was going to try to dance, even if it was for a year, with the disease and knowing I had better medications and things like that. And so I ended up going back to Dance Theatre of Harlem. And then I did a year of freelancing after the company closed with Complexions Contemporary Ballet and with Alonzo King LINES. And then I got into Ailey, which was a dream come true. I was with Ailey for three years.

And then I thought I was retiring after another injury and serious flare-up when I turned 30 years old. I thought, “Oh, I’ve done… I’ve now lived my dream. I’ve really had my career and I feel fulfilled. And now, I’m going to move on to my second career, whatever that may be.” And so, I studied nonprofit management at University of Washington in St. Louis. And this was to sort of merge my love of dance and performing arts, and my want to learn more about administration and business. And upon graduation, I actually started working in a university, at Webster University in St. Louis. I absolutely fell in love with the students. I fell in love with being on a college campus, which—I always say, going back to school both times saved my life, because it allowed me to see the world in a bigger view or a larger view than we typically do as dancers. And I knew that I wanted to pursue a life in higher education. So, I worked there for several years, for three years. And I also was an adjunct at Washington University in St. Louis. And then I moved to Houston for a very short amount of time, for my husband’s work. And then I interviewed for the job at Juilliard.

So, I would’ve never predicted falling into this life, but when I look back, it all makes sense how the dots can connect. And I think it all centers around education, around dance and the arts, and being around young people, young, talented people. I think that’s my sweet spot, and the place where I know that I will enjoy learning and being around young people.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And all of those dots that you ended up connecting over the course of your career, they ended up making you into sort of a unicorn. You have this deep performing arts—performance experience. But then you also have experience as an educator. You have a college degree, you’ve studied nonprofit management. When you first came to Juilliard in 2018, what was your vision for the dance department? How did you want to bring all of that knowledge to bear on this already incredible institution that you were coming into?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yeah, it’s interesting, because I’m not an alum of Juilliard. And I really had never even stepped foot in the building when I was in the interview process. And so, much of what I envisioned, not only was shaped through various conversations and my own research and just observing after a year or so being here, but also where I felt dance education on a really high level needed to move, from my experiences in the field in general.

Much of my plan and vision has to do with making sure the program continues to evolve and innovate in the 21st century. The program this year is celebrating its 70th anniversary, which is really incredible and exciting, and really is a tribute to Martha Hill’s vision of a school or conservatory that trains professionally-oriented dancers equally in ballet and modern dance. And that has been the foundation of our school and has become a model for so many other conservatories around the country.

But with that being said, we have to continue to be as innovative and brave as Martha Hill was 70 years ago, to make sure that we are keeping up with trends or setting the trends. And so there were a couple of areas that I felt like needed to be addressed. We all know that there are certain challenges with classical ballet and training classical ballet. And that’s something that I wanted to take a look at, to be sure that every student felt like they belonged in our spaces and in our classical ballet classes. And so it really took conversations with faculty to make sure that we were all having the same goals and learning outcomes for the students.

And also, I’m thinking about inclusion—we changed immediately, when I arrived, we changed the name of men’s class to allegro. And we said that every student coming in has to take either pointe or allegro in their first two years of study, no matter their gender. We just wanted them to have that foundational knowledge. So we see students of various genders in both of those classes, but they are in those classes and feel like they elected to take those classes and are happy in doing that work. So that was a major change coming in.

And then we developed a class called ballet lab, which allows the students to come into the class and it looks at ballet as a technology. So every day or week, there’s another theme that students are researching through their class. So whether it’s musicality, or kind of systems or processes of movement or pathways of movement, whether that’s various qualities or feelings, the students have discussions about how to approach movement, and are invited to improvise and pull away then from the classical idiom. But it is centered in ballet as a technology. And so it’s unique. It’s a unique class, it’s continuing to evolve. And that class is open to our third and fourth year students. So, they really get a foundational education and traditional techniques in their first and second year. And then the third and fourth year, we have altered to become more contemporary.

So, those dancers are also required to take hip hop, West African dance. They’re required to take two years of composition, whereas before it was one, because we want our students to be able to graduate and help to contribute to a room in a creation, or become choreographers themselves. We also started a class in new media and technology, a composition class in new media and technology. And thank goodness we did, because we did that… we had that class, the first one, in fall of 2019, taught by Yara Travieso, who is an alum. And then COVID hit, and we had so many students who are already tooled with the ability to use a camera, to edit, to storyboard, to understand perspective, and they hit the ground running right away. So, that was a positive change.

Another huge area that I wanted to just really take a look at is, a key value at Juilliard is equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And even before I came in to start working, during the interview process, I kept that at the forefront, because this is an area that I feel is really important that we need to continue to look at and change in the field in general, and certainly in higher education for the very top tier schools. So, we’ve addressed various issues, from how we audition students to how… what criteria we use when we’re auditioning students, to taking a look at the repertory. Because for me, finding diverse talent, a pool of talented dancers, that’s almost like—there’s so many dancers out there who were incredible. We can find a diverse talent pool. Then we have to work on faculty and to make sure that our faculty reflect the students with whom they’re in the rooms with.

But also, we are responsible to the history and the lineage of our field. And when I was interviewing, I was given a document that stated all of the choreographers whose rep that the school have performed. And that represented sort of like iconic choreographers of modern and contemporary dance. And there was not one person of color on that list, not one Black or African American person on that list. Perhaps, some works had been presented by Alvin Ailey more than 20 or 25 years ago. But since then, under the last director, that was not the case. And I was shocked to see that, because the school is centered right here in New York City.

So this is something that I spoke about, and everyone agreed when we were having this discussion. And so, since I’ve been here, we’ve presented Bill T. Jones. We were to present work by Donald McKayle, but COVID hit and we weren’t able to. This year, the students are learning Shelter by Jawole Willa Jo Zollar. And that’s super exciting, because she is the first Black female choreographer we’re presenting in our work… our rep work, not new work, but…

Margaret Fuhrer:
She is the first? I did not realize that. Wow.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yes, and she is incredible. And so yeah, you have to take like a 360 view at equity and diversity. I’ve had several conversations with our dance history teacher to look at the curriculum, to make sure it’s reflected on our curriculum, with our music studies teachers. We have conversations when guests come in, and I want to make sure that they understand the environment in which they’re stepping into and the agreement that they’re making when they step into the room. And so yeah, it’s all about creating spaces of belonging. And as Jawole says, “Not safe spaces, but brave spaces,” where people feel open to have difficult conversations and they could work through that… through our art.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You just answered like my next 25 questions. That was amazing. But everything that you’re talking about, all of these forward-thinking changes, they’re things, they’re ideas that a lot of people in the dance world are really invested in now—but I feel like especially this next generation coming up, they’re truly invested in these ideas of diversity, equity, and inclusion and everything that that means, in terms of how dance curriculum looks, how dance education looks. How would you describe today’s Juilliard dance student, and how have you seen the student body change—even since 2018, when you came in?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yeah. I would describe a Julliard student as someone who is a chameleon, someone who can take on several different ideas or styles, or kind of shape and mold themselves to whatever is happening in the room or whatever they are being asked to do. And I say this a chameleon, because I feel like that sort of creature actually has to have a thought process behind how to make those changes and how to be specific. And so there’s a really special intelligence that our Juilliard students have, that they have this incredible body awareness and intelligence. A Juilliard student is very… I would say, refined technically, or comes in with the potential to be very refined technically. So our first two years, as I said, are very foundational and they will study very rigorously ballet, Horton, Limón, Cunningham, Graham.

And then, in addition, they are generators of movement and of thought. And when we audition the students, we not only ask them to take class, but we also give them rep and we coach them to see if they’re able to adapt quickly, take on suggestions and changes. And we ask them to improv in various ways and then we have a conversation. And I think that part is the most important, because a Juilliard student is someone who is curious, generous, open-minded, and also very determined and driven.

I think those things have not changed over the years. I find alumni and friends of mine who’ve graduated from Juilliard have those qualities. What I do think has changed, since I’ve been present, is there’s an openness for discussion, that the students know that my door is always open, that in a class, if they feel challenged by something, or they have questioned something, that it’s okay to stop and talk about it, whether it’s something just technical or simple, or something more challenging or philosophical. I find that our students are excited and open to taking on various challenges, where I think in the past, the dancers were so focused on sort of one path. And I hope they know that we hope for all possibilities for students. So they should not feel that they have failed or were not a success story. If they end up going into the Broadway world or the commercial world, or want to be an arts administrator upon graduation, or a teacher, or go into Pilates or become a lawyer, whatever they want to do—we want them to feel like we honor those aspirations and we want to help them get there.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s interesting, too, because I feel like even coming into Juilliard, the experiences that students have with social media coming up in the dance world, it’s really altered the landscape that they live inside—before they come to the school, while they’re at school, after school, their careers afterward. How have you seen that impact dancers at Juilliard?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Well, yeah. I’ve seen that impact in some really special ways and some challenging ways. So when we auditioned students often, I ask a question: “What do you know about Juilliard and why would you want to come?” And many times students will say, “I follow X, Y and Z who have just graduated,” or “I follow as many Juilliard students as I can to get a sense of the program.” And so that sort of advertisement or marketing, if you will, speaks so well and loudly for us. We are only successful if our students are successful.

And so it’s really great that people want to follow our students. Our students are often posting about their performances or sharing clips of them improvising or clips of the student works that they’ve created. And so it gives a really wonderful inside look. Our students also take entrepreneurship and they learn about branding and self-marketing. And understanding yourself as a business and really treating your social media pages as such, because they know, if they go to an audition, there’s a chance that a director, a choreographer may take a look at your Instagram page to get a sense of who the dancer is.

Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s your resumé.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yeah. So they understand that, they really understand how social media can be used for professional reasons. I think some of the downfall of social media is also, you naturally start to judge yourself against others, and it’s an unrealistic view of a person’s life. For instance, I basically use my page to boast about my students, because they’re incredible in all the things that they’re doing. And I post a lot about my home life with my kids. I’m not going to post all the messy things. I’m not going to post when they need to be disciplined for not sharing, or Laila comes downstairs—one time, she did do this, I was on a Zoom call and she came downstairs, covered in peanut butter. I did not know why. She was like, “It’s like lotion, mom.” And so she literally rubs peanut butter all over her body. Those are things that I’m not going to post. Right? [laughter]

Margaret Fuhrer:
I can empathize with that. I was just going to say, I have one other podcast interview that I did, I hope nobody actually heard it in the final version—my three-year-old, who’s just potty trained, needed help in the middle of it. And so you can hear her screaming, “I need wiping!” [laughter]

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yeah! All my colleagues, they have heard… they know the time, like my kids’ normal hours of bowel movements and everything. But I think that all the scrolling and seeing other people’s lives and not realizing that that is a romanticized version of ourselves—it can lead to a lot of mental duress. And I am seeing a lot of students suffering from anxiety and depression. And not that social media is a cause of those things. But I don’t think that it often helps students get out of a mental sort of threat.

Margaret Fuhrer:
It’s interesting too, because social media… dancers can become celebrities of a sort on social media, even as teenagers, so young. And I mean, there’s this the recent news story about Axel Webber, the TikTok star, who applied to the theater program.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yes! His fans are posting on my page. I was like, “Who is this person?” They kept on saying, “accept Axel Webber” on all of my posts. I was like, “He didn’t audition.”

Margaret Fuhrer:
Not a dance person!

Alicia Graf Mack:
Never. Not a dance person.

Margaret Fuhrer:
But it is—it’s so strange now that young artists have all these different routes to professional careers, thanks to social platforms and other changes. I mean, in that kind of environment, at the risk of asking an obvious question, what’s your argument for the value of the training and credentialing that a young dancer can get at a place like Juilliard?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yeah. I mean, we really continue to train in a deep and rigorous way. And I think young people, before they come to college, often are participating in competitions. And I think there’s a lot of value in being a competition student and participating in those things. But I think sometimes, we lose the thought process of, what is it to train for training’s sake? How do you develop artistry, if you’re only thinking about gaining points or winning, or having a fierce photo on your Instagram page? So it’s kind of understanding that that is for a show, if you will, your online presence. And our students, when they’re in the classroom, they’re in the classroom, they’re really separated from that world and dedicated to their studies.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Okay. So let’s talk about COVID, which you started talking about a little bit before, because, oh my gosh. It’s just… it’s posed unthinkable challenges, especially for educators, because the stakes are so high when you have young people’s futures on the line. Can you talk about how you think the pandemic has shaped this generation of young dancers—in not so great ways, but also in good ways? And how do you think it’s changed the dance education landscape more broadly?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I’ll start with the positives. What I found at Juilliard, we closed… we were one of the first schools in New York to close, when COVID first hit the United States. And we were all shocked and so saddened. And so many students have been taking class on a daily basis since they were five, four years old. And in March, when we shut down and we were rethinking how we were going to present dance to students remotely, there was a period of time—some students didn’t go back into the studio until the summer, or until they returned with us in the fall semester. And that was the longest period that students didn’t go to a studio on a daily basis or really just didn’t move or propel their bodies or like be in that meditative sort of space that they’ve been used to every day.

And while that was incredibly difficult, when our students returned, I think they had a greater appreciation and a real passion to be in the room with each other. It strengthened the bond between the dancers and the faculty, I have to say. We were so grateful for this space to be together, to make discoveries. And it sounds really clichéd, but it was so true. And students have held on to that sense of gratitude. I always talk about dance as a gift for myself, but I can see how our students feel the same way. Now, when they come into the room and we actually have a rehearsal with 24 people in one room—while we still may be masked, there’s this sense of, I’m going to make the most of this time, because who knows tomorrow what’s going to happen, with the next variant, or with someone being sick and we have to quarantine? It’s so varying all the time and unpredictable that I think when the students are present, they are even more present than they’ve been before.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Once you’ve lost it, it’s hard to forget, when you come back, how much it’s worth to you. Yeah.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Or just partnering… the ability to partner, to touch someone…

Margaret Fuhrer:
To touch somebody!

Alicia Graf Mack:
… to move together with someone, it’s like, “Wow, it’s a revelation.”

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Nothing can replace that energy.

So, before we go, I want to give you a chance to talk a little more about Juilliard Spring Dances. Because as you said, it’s the 70th anniversary for the dance division. It’s a big year. You have this program with Trisha Brown and Jawole’s piece and Aszure Barton. Can you talk a little about how you went about choosing the rep for this program, for this big milestone year?

Alicia Graf Mack:
Sure. So with Trisha Brown, Set and Reset/Reset, we actually started the process of staging the work in the spring semester of 2020. So we had a different set of dancers learning the work and then resetting the work uniquely to their own choreographic vision. And it was outstanding. It was incredible. The work was so exciting and the students were very invested, because they had the ability to learn this iconic piece and then reshape it, put their own stamp on it. We had our own set design, our own costume design that was prompted or influenced by some of the directives of the trust. And two weeks before we were going to hit the stage, COVID hit. So we weren’t able to do it. And I just felt like, it was such a loss, because it was such a unique opportunity.

So, we are bringing back Set and Reset/Reset for a whole new set of dancers. Most of the dancers who learned it originally either have graduated or they want a different experience, learning a new piece of rep. So we’re really excited about that. And then with Shelter, which will be the second piece, Jawole Willa Jo Zollar’s Shelter, I’m so excited for the students to perform this work, because it’s highly physical. It requires a different sense of groundedness, of rhythm, but more so than the actual steps in dancing, the students can take on a character. So while they don’t have like specific names, there is a story there and the students can really develop their own character and Jawole will be present to coach them. And so that opportunity right there is life-affirming, to have Jawole in the room working with the students.

And then the third work, Aszure Barton’s work, return to patience, I had been in conversation with Aszure for a few years about what we could present. And we learned that several major companies were interested in staging return to patience, which was originally created at Juilliard for a New Dances performance. And so I said, “Well, before we start to lose our costumes”—because other major companies want to rent the costumes from us—”let’s see if we can present one more time.” So that’s how we landed with return to patience. Had we not presented that piece, we probably would’ve presented another work by Aszure.

I wasn’t specifically, looking for an all-female choreographer program, but I’m very happy that it’s worked out that way, because female choreographers are just historically underrepresented. It will be our return to spring dances after two years. And hopefully the Omicron variant will be behind us and will welcome a full crowd. And we’ll be able to showcase the dancers, our student musicians and these incredible choreographers.

Margaret Fuhrer:
And what a wonderful sign of progress that you have an all-female program, without that intentionally being the design, just sort of, “These are the best for the program, I want to put together.” That’s so fantastic.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Yes! And I think that’s what also happens when women are in leadership positions. It’s not unusual to think about us when leading programs and cultivating relationships.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yep. That’s what it’s all about. Okay. So I’ll end with a huge two-part question. What are the biggest challenges you continue to face as an educator? And what about today’s dance landscape makes you most hopeful?

Alicia Graf Mack:
I would say, there are two challenges that I’ve seen and experienced in dance in higher education. The first one is simply the cost of tuition. The cost of tuition for major schools is so high. It is similar to any Ivy League institution, the cost. Knowing that many dancers live a fulfilling life, but will not probably make the type of income that will allow them easily to pay off huge student loans and live independently and build for investment into their future, that’s one thing I think we really need to take a look at for all performing arts institutions.

And the second thing that I’ve seen, that’s really affected young people’s education is the support for mental health. And we’ve seen across the board in higher education, the need for more counselors, for more discussion and for more openness about mental health issues and how we can help each other. I think those are the two main issues that I see on a daily basis at school.

And the thing that I’m most excited about… There’s so many things. But when I think about our students graduating and going into the field, I can say firsthand that Juilliard students are going to be leaders in our field. They have already been in the practice of shifting the atmosphere in positive ways and changing the landscape in positive ways at school, thinking about gender, inclusivity and how we speak to each other in a room, how someone in the front of the room leads. These are all questions that we talk about often. And I think as they go off into their careers, I’m hopeful that they already see themselves as leaders. And then they will continue to shift and change the atmosphere.

So, that makes me very excited. It’s like throwing a little pebble into the water and hoping that those rings continue to move and spread and influence others. I think that’s the most exciting aspect of what we’re doing at Juilliard.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And we see those ripples of positive change from the outside too. Alicia, thank you so much for talking with us today. Listeners, Juilliard Spring Dances will run March 23rd to 27th, and some shows will also be livestream, so even if you don’t live in the New York City area, you can check it out. We have information about all of that in the show notes. And Alicia, merde for all of it.

Alicia Graf Mack:
Thank you so much.

[pause]

Another big thank-you to Alicia. I hope you all get the chance to see the Juilliard dancers tackle those works by Trisha Brown and Jawole Willa Jo Zollar and Aszure Barton, either in-person or online. They are always so hungry and, like Alicia said, they’re such chameleons—I love seeing the energy they bring to repertory pieces. As promised, we have links with info about the school’s spring dances performances in the show notes.

And thanks to all of you for subscribing to The Dance Edit Extra. I’ll see you back here in two weeks for another new episode. Have a great weekend, everyone.