Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi, dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. Welcome to The Dance Edit Extra!

This episode, we have choreographer Stephen Petronio—who, if you’re a dance person, he really doesn’t need much of an introduction, but I’ll do it anyway. Stephen trained and performed with some of the leading figures of the Judson era; he was the first male dancer in Trisha Brown’s dance company. Since 1984, he’s been director of the Stephen Petronio Company, for which he has created dozens of dances that tend to devour space—they’re frequently described as visceral.

The company is about to present its annual season at The Joyce Theater in NYC, and the programming is all about connection and hope. It includes New New Prayer For Now, an expanded version of a dance originally conceived for film last year, created in collaboration with the composer and performance artist Monstah Black and featuring the Young People’s Chorus of New York City. There’s also the return of Bloom, made in 2006, with music by Rufus Wainwright based on the poetry of Emily Dickinson and Walt Whitman, which also features the Young People’s Chorus. And then there’s Trisha Brown’s Group Primary Accumulation, part of Petronio’s Bloodlines series, which honors his own dance lineage. That’s another piece that the company first performed on film last year and is now bringing to the live stage.

Stephen and I had a wide-ranging conversation—he is a great storyteller in words as well as in movement—but the throughline is really how to be creative in a time of crisis, something that many of us have been thinking about a lot over the past few years. Here he is.

[pause]

Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi Stephen. Thank you so much for coming on The Dance Edit Extra today.

Stephen Petronio:
Pleasure to be here. I’m excited.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I’m really glad to have you here, because you’re somebody I’ve been hoping to have on the podcast for a while now. We’re officially talking today about your company’s upcoming season at the Joyce. That said, because your world live premiere for this Joyce season is rooted in the pandemic, I actually want to start by going back in time a little bit…

Stephen Petronio:
Sure.

Margaret Fuhrer:
…to the very beginning of shutdowns because your company was on tour as things were first closing down, right?

Stephen Petronio:
We were, yes, in Ohio about to perform in Columbus and then going onto a creative residency at the choreographic center in Akron. And so Ohio canceled and Akron took us in and said, “Oh, you could stay here. Don’t worry about it.” So we’re in that beautiful space. I don’t know if you know that center.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Stephen Petronio:
We’re in that beautiful space. Christy was very gracious, Christy Bolingbroke, and it was like an episode of “Night of the Living Dead.” We were watching the campus get less and less populated until… We got there on Monday. By Friday, there was nobody but us.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, gosh.

Stephen Petronio:
And we were bringing back some work. We were also coming into the Joyce. We were going to do The Rite of Spring for the Joyce, we were going to bring that back from the ’90s to the Joyce, so we were working on that there, and it was just very surreal. And every day, I’d go in and we’d all look at each other like, “What the hell is going on?” And people are calling in like, “Come home, come home.” And we were like, “Everything’s fine here.”

And then, so we got through the whole week, and then by Friday there was nobody outside the windows. It was an empty campus, and there was us. But the restaurants were still open. So Christy was like, “Well, stay here as long as you—stay here for the residency.” And on Sunday morning, she called me and she said, “The governor’s closing down the restaurants. You got to get out of here.”

So then it was a mad dash, and it was very emotional because we were in a very isolated, beautiful working situation on tour. And we were all going back to we didn’t know what. And so my office had to arrange flights and because I live upstate, I decided that I didn’t want to drive. I didn’t want to go through LaGuardia and then have to drive a couple hours to get back upstate. So I took a rental car. I put them all on a plane and then I took a rental car and drove across the country, while people were stopping in these rest stops where people were running away from each other and stuff. It was all very dramatic.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Stephen Petronio:
So it was very difficult to let go of them, of the dancers. Because I didn’t know what we were letting go into. So I have a residency center, Petronio Residency Center, up in Round Top. And I live on that site. So I immediately began teaching classes to the dancers, because I was just freaked out, so I wanted to do something with them that was regular.

And then I just began making movement as a meditation. It was not—I’d never used Zoom before. You’ve heard this story before, but I’ve never used Zoom. I didn’t know… There was no goal. It was just, “Don’t lose your mind.” And I could see the dancers were laughing, but there was panic in their eyes as well, because nobody knew what was going on. And so we just began making movement.

And when it really hit us what was going on, I shifted the budget so I could bring them all up a couple of weeks every couple of months. And so we did have a creative process through the pandemic. It was very stop and start, which was rough on their bodies, but it was beautiful to be together.

And my residency center was an outlandish idea. My organization thought I was insane, because when you’re running a dance company, it’s hard enough, but now you’re buying property? Anyway, it became the saving grace of a lot of people, a lot of dancers that we did bubble residencies for, and for my company. It was just really a salvation to be together for two weeks every couple of months, was a way to keep your sanity and to look forward to something.

And so it ended up being this thing called… I had made a work for Juilliard called #PrayerForNow. So up there, it was New Prayer For Now. And I had tried to do stuff on Zoom that was contained to the box like everyone was doing and I just found it really tedious. And it’s great to be creative and to get good at that, but I just want to freaking dance the way Stephen Petronio knows how to dance. And that is not in a box. So we did something in the box, and that was interesting—or not, depending on who’s looking at it. And so then I began to make movement that I… Just crazy movement. So the first phrase is called Hysterical Queen, which is dedicated to me, but it was just very much what I do, slapping the space with these crazy dancers. And so we made it. The focus of it is really about being together and being in space in a very active way.

And so we made a film that was called New Prayer For Now. And so that had a certain scope, and now there’s a new song that’s added to it and we’ve finished it and shifted it. So now it’s New New Prayer For Now, and it’ll be the first live performance for the Joyce. Really it’s about our bodies being connected to each other and screaming in the space.

Margaret Fuhrer:
That was my next 10 questions. That was great.

Stephen Petronio:
Yep!

Margaret Fuhrer:
I was wondering too, actually, when I saw the title, how direct the connections were to that original Juilliard piece. Because I’d seen both, and it wasn’t necessarily obvious, but how did that go in your head?

Stephen Petronio:
Well, this is such an interesting progression, and the reason I’m keeping the New Prayer vibe around me is that I had been making a work number of years, four years ago, called American Landscapes. And it was a difficult work emotionally in the company. And there was a lot of drama at that moment in the company. And I just, I began to feel… I’m very stubborn in my whole thing about having a dance company. Everyone knows how stubborn I am about it. And after that piece, I kind of felt like, “Why am I doing this?” And it was my 30th anniversary and I loved the piece, but there was a lot of emotional difficulty surrounding it. And so I just felt a little bit like I didn’t feel safe in my studio and I didn’t feel safe… I don’t know. The whole process didn’t feel safe anymore.

So I kind of stopped. And I left the company off for a couple of months. And then Juilliard called me and I was like, “Well, that’s the last thing I want to do.” And then I ended up doing it. I mean, I really like Alicia Graf Mack, she’s amazing. And I was the first person she called when she took over the program. So I don’t know, I just thought, “I’m going to do it because I really love her and let’s see what happens.”

And so I went in there with a very specific idea, and I met the class, was this senior class, and they were amazing and they were completely engaged. So I quickly shifted the entire idea and we made this. And so for me, the idea of the #PrayerForNow was that this is the meditation in movement that I need to do with them to stay engaged—engaged in my artistic process, engaged in the world, dance engaged in space, engaged with the audience. So really very stripped down to my body in space with you as a point of view.

And so that was #PrayerForNow. And so I fell in love with making movement all over again and I fell in love with those dancers who were so excited to have agency in the creative process because I taught them some phrases. And then we used them in a structure that they really had a creative say in, and they had never done that before. And it all was all very exciting for all of us. I’m in my 60s, they’re just barely 20, we all got very giggly, and it was a really beautiful moment.

So I realized that what I need to be doing for the next couple years is making these moving meditations that are about engaging in space and forget about everything else. And it’s a very simple way of focusing my body and focusing the intent of the movement and the connection to the audience. And that’s what I’ve been doing. So it’s not like I’m recycling, but it’s what I need to be doing. I need to be doing these meditations in space. And when I say prayer, I use that word very, very loosely. It’s about being embodied in space in front of eyes.

So there is one of the phrases, it’s a circular phrase that came from Juilliard that was very fancy. And all my dancers came to watch rehearsal at some point. And they were like, “Why don’t you ever make movement like that for us?” And I was like, “I do. It’s just different when you’re inside. But now that you’re seeing it…” Everybody wants what they don’t have. So I said, “Okay, you want that movement? You’re going to do that movement.” So they learned that circle. So that’s the only movement that’s in New New Prayer For Now. It’s employed in the creative process, but Hysterical Queen is really the basis of the piece. And I keep saying the “slapping space.” It’s very much about slapping space and the joy of slapping space.

And then it starts with something that I made for this program, which is a version of “Balm in Gilead”—so Monstah Black is doing the music for this, and he’s amazing. And so he singing of his version “Balm in Gilead.” And I made something very opposite of slapping space, very much in place. So the piece starts with that and then it ends… So I asked Monstah to sing songs that might be important for this moment. So it was “Balm in Gilead” and the ending song is “Bridge Over Troubled Water.” So it’s his version of “Bridge Over Troubled Water.” And they’re questionable choices because they’re very heavy duty songs, but I really felt like this year, with Rufus Wainwright and the Bloom piece that we’re showing from 2006, and with these songs, that this is what we need to be hearing right now. We need to lifted. It doesn’t need to… I don’t have anything to say right now about the pandemic, but I’m here making movement and I can give you some really beautiful inspiration that’s kind of irrational and outside of the mindset that we’re in right now, and that’s what I feel like job is to do right now. So…

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I mean, you’ve already started talking about this, but I’m hoping you can say a little bit more: You’re such inveterate collaborator. You’re never not collaborating. Can you talk more about how you thought of Monstah Black for this project and what that collaboration process was like?

Stephen Petronio:
Well, yes, I can. And I have to blame Johnnie Cruise Mercer for introducing me to Monstah. I knew Monstah from Instagram, but he’s got a very different—The Illustrious Blacks, by the way, everybody go to their Instagram page, blow it up. They’re amazing. Husbands, two husbands. And it’s very techno. And they’re in the club world. They perform in clubs a lot.

And so, Johnnie Cruise Mercer is an artist that I met a number of years ago. I saw him in a piece of John Bernds’ that Ishmael Houston-Jones brought back at Dancespace. And I fell in love with his dancing. I mean, I never do this, but I wrote to him on Instagram and I was like, “I need to meet you.” His dancing was so generous. And he was so graced—not graceful, but graced. He’s such a beautiful shining light.He really moved me.

And so I wrote him a fan letter, and we got to know each other a little bit. And then he came to a few rehearsals, but it didn’t work out with his schedule. And he had the opportunity to come up to Crow’s Nest on a joint residency between Danspace and the Petronio Residency Center—we’ve been doing that with Danspace. And so they suggested Johnnie, and I was like, “Okay, I love Johnnie.” So Johnnie was up at Crow’s Nest at Petronio Residency Center, and he invited me to come into the studio. Actually, I’m not often there when people are working, but I was there for that. And he invited me into the studio and in two seconds, I was in love with what he was doing.

He’s got his very own trajectory as a young artist, but there is a hunger in making movement that I recognized in my young self, and it was all over him. And he was pulling inspiration out of the air in a way that I thought I understood. And so I became very smitten with him. And he did a film with Monstah during the pandemic. And I loved the music. And for me, music is everything. Movement is king, music is everything. And I called Johnnie and I was like, “Look, I know he’s your collaborator and I don’t want to step… What would you think?” And I said to him, “And please be honest.” And Johnnie was like, “Oh my God, I’m sure he would love it. Go ahead. Go for it.”

So I called Monstah, and what a delight he was to work with, and still is to work with. In fact, Johnnie and I are now doing a duet together at American Dance Festival in June, and Monstah’s doing the score for it. I haven’t been onstage, let alone with a 20-something year old beautiful dancer, in a long time. So this will be a duet that we’re making with Monstah.

So Monstah, I love Monstah. I understand him on an intuitive level, and he’s just very inspirational, and he’s as kind and as beautiful as can be. And I mean, what more do you want to dance to than someone who makes music like that?

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Oh, I love that you’re going to end up doing that duet at ADF too. The collaboration continues.

So coming back to New New Prayer For Now, the completed version of that piece that’s about to premiere at the Joyce. How did you round out and adapt that piece for the stage, after making the film version, and what did you discover in that translation?

Stephen Petronio:
Well, for me, making dance films, I don’t do that very much. So really, the question could be turned around: How did I make the movement that I’m used to putting on… I mean, I’m really good at making movement in space for a proscenium stage. So making it for the camera was more difficult for me. So I had to compress space, really, and began to… A few years ago, maybe 10 years ago, I began looking at the proscenium at the Joyce as not so much a proscenium, but I began to turn it into a sphere. So I began to shift the fronts a lot at the Joyce, because I was getting bored with that flat screen. And so that helped a little bit, but everything was much more compressed. So the process now is about giving things more space around them.

The opening trio, which is “Balm in Gilead,” which is a very emotional song, I’ve decided to compress up against the downstage edge of the audience so that it’s very flat and very contained like I felt in the film. So I’m trying kind of try to give you that experience as an audience, and then that’s going to blow out into space in the way that I love to blow out into space. So that’s one. It’s really about how I’m tempering and fooling around with space.

But the biggest part is there’s another five minutes of music, and it’s “Bridge Over Troubled Water.” And so, what to do? Look, I made this dance in the pandemic and my expectations were not the same as they are when I’m making a dance for a season. And in some ways, there’s a purity to it. And I love that about it. A simplicity to it. And I love that about it. So I made it because I needed to make it and I wanted to make it for my dancers. So I hope you guys like it. But when I began to realize I was going to finish it, how to finish it became a very big issue. So the song is another five minutes that are added on, and it’s a very distinctive shift in the tenor of the movement exploration. And the last five minutes is very much about building things as a group holding onto each other. So it’s not a bridge, we’re not making bridges, but we are using that—instead of physical connection to space, it’s physical connection to each other to build items of interest that are about propelling the single body further than it can go.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Bridges to each other, which is such a luxury after pandemic time without those bridges.

Stephen Petronio:
All we wanted to do was touch each other.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yes! Just touch each other all the time.

I wanted to come back to what you were saying about making dance for film, because yeah, there’s been a lot of talk recently about the future of dance on film after this pandemic rush, when everyone was forced to experiment with it and to invest in it. I know that’s not something you’ve done a lot of before, but what are your feelings now at this point about making dance for the screen? Is it something that you would like to continue to pursue? Do you feel like, mmm, you’ve you’ve done it, you’re ready to set that aside?

Stephen Petronio:
Here’s why I didn’t focus on it before: finances. Because there was a time when I was super modern, and in the eighties, no one was doing what I was doing. And so for me to bring that sensibility onto the stage was very, very fresh. And so I’ve become a very attached to that old fashioned, “I’m going to show up and you’re going to show up and then we’re going to do things that you don’t expect.” So that’s been kind of my modus operandi for the last 20 years or whatever. And maybe it’s more than 20 years now. We’re getting close to 40. So I really love that old fashioned thing about space and performance. And I’ve been beating that drum. I want to keep a company. It’s about the stage.

And I kind of took a stand in that way, and then when that stage got ripped away from us, I was like, “What the f**k?” I mean, I was like, “Okay, now you really put your foot in it, because you’ve made this part of your career about becoming, in some ways, mastering your craft in space in front of an audience. And now you can’t do that.” The first thing I did before New Prayer for Now for film was I made a very short piece with The Rolling Stones, “Gimme Shelter.” And I did that, I choreographed it, I was in the studio and they were all at home locked down before they began coming up, and I made it for the [Zoom] cube.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Stephen Petronio:
And I really enjoyed that. Actually, I did enjoy the limitation of the square. It gave me a connection to… Trisha Brown was my mentor. It gave me a connection to one of her old pieces called Locus, which was all made in a square. And it was The Rolling Stones, the song was perfect, and it was only about having to do this thing for this flat screen.

But I decided after I did that I did not want to spend my time doing that much more, and I could see other people that were really running with it, enjoying it, and doing these crazy multiple screen, the multiple squares, like Hollywood Squares type of thing. It all seemed really fun, but I wasn’t interested in it.

So am I interested in film? Yes, but I have a very interesting… And I believe there’s a real place for film in dance, and there’s a real future for it, of course. Most of what I see on film I hate. It looks clichéd. And I look at Charlie Atlas filming Cunningham, and Charlie does really interesting things. Not to put anybody else’s work down, but I don’t have a great amount to say. And it takes a lot of resources to do that. And so I’m continuing to pour my resources into dancers, a), and into live space. So if somebody wants to fund a film project, I’ll, I’ll pour it into that.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Okay. I won’t keep talking about film for that much longer then, but I did have one more question, which was, I was glad that you brought up Trisha Brown in the context of film, because of course, for your program last spring, your virtual program, you did film Group Primary Accumulation, and now you’re bringing that to the Joyce. It’s danced lying down, and I remember thinking at the time, oh, that’s perfect, because we’re all just exhausted. This is what we want to do right now, is dance lying down. And I think—actually didn’t the Trisha Brown Company do a pandemic Zoom version of it, with everybody in the boxes?

Stephen Petronio:
They did. Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Why did you feel that was the right piece for that moment last year, and how did it work in that filmed environment? And then, why did you want to bring it back again for this live program now?

Stephen Petronio:
Sure. Well, and—

Margaret Fuhrer:
I didn’t mean to have you explain all of Bloodlines at this point, by the way—we can get to that later, but yeah.

Stephen Petronio:
No, Bloodlines, let’s do it now.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Okay. [laughter]

Stephen Petronio:
So Bloodlines is an initiative that I started about seven or eight years ago to honor the masters that have inspired me. So it’s got a very narrow focus. Everything that’s in Bloodlines, and we’ve done 12 pieces now, are things that either I worked with the person or they had some kind of giant impact in my life. And many of them happen to be Judson Dance people.

So Trisha, of course, was my mentor. I was the first man in her company. I was only dancing four years when I met her. And choosing Group Primary Accumulation was an interesting choice, because I don’t lie down and I don’t stand still. And it’s also a piece for all women. So, the first piece of hers I chose was Glacial Decoy, and we showed that at the Joyce, and it was right up my alley, and I was there when they were making it. So I knew it and understood it and it’s influenced me very greatly.

But this was more of a curve ball. I chose it originally because it was the opposite of everything I do. It’s structurally perfect, that accumulation; it’s a mathematical system that you can’t argue with. And it’s very simple gestural exploration that accumulates. I saw it about 10 years ago up at a museum upstate. I can’t remember where it was, but I was re-blown away by it. And of course, whenever I see those movements, and I’ve seen many beautiful dancers do it, but I could only see Trisha Brown. And I have to say, I loved that woman like I’ve loved few other people. And the way she did that is just unforgettable. So it’s a really great opportunity to lie down and get close to Trisha and not to forget her. And even now, when we’re bringing it back.

So, why do we do it like that? Well, first of all, it was a pandemic and we were up at Crow’s Nest, so I was like, “Oh, well, let’s do it outside somewhere.” But it was also very wet. And then this is a funny story. Somebody came to the retreat and they were thinking about having their wedding there. And so I was showing them around and they were like, “Oh, can we have the wedding on the bridge?” And I was like, “Well, that’s probably not a great idea, but—interesting.” And then they left and I was like, “We need to do Group Primary Accumulation on the bridge.” And I was thinking that it was going to be filmed from the audience perspective from either side, and then I realized that there was a space above the bridge where a drone could go. And so we went with the drone idea.

And Trisha’s so great. One of the things I read about Trisha later on was that she always wanted it filmed from above. Never did. So I thought I would give her that little posthumous wish. So, we filmed it from the bridge. We did it in two takes. It was a very windy day. It was cold, so we didn’t have a… But I really love the film. I love the simplicity of the film.

And we talked about if we wanted to incorporate that somehow in the Joyce performance. And I just thought, “Let’s let people see it in the way that Trisha intended it for the stage.” I mean, we can’t really do much better on a proscenium stage than what she did. So let’s do that. And for us, it’s a different experience. I mean, it was hard to have them… The dancers found it very difficult to be exposed like that from above. But they’ve really enjoyed learning it because it’s so different.

But her gestural sense really informs my work. And so it’s just so beautiful to go back to these masters in Bloodlines, whether it’s Paxton or Yvonne Rainer. And they have influenced me in some way, all of them have influenced me in some way, and Trisha particularly, because I danced that work for seven years. But her assembling and dissembling of gesture is something that’s in me.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That film version from overhead, it was like hieroglyphics.

Stephen Petronio:
Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Will you once again feature a male dancer in the cast of Group Primary Accumulation?

Stephen Petronio:
No, it’s all women. They’ve never done that before. They made a very special exception for me. And I think they thought maybe I was going to do it. And I decided that I wasn’t going to do it, that one of my male dancers was going to do it because he was Dominican and I wanted to have Dominican skin in the game. But Trisha Brown’s company asked me to make it all women, so we shall happily agree to make it all women.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Okay. Yeah, that actually leads right into my next question, which is about how you think about legacy. And you’ve answered questions like this a lot before, but do you see the Bloodlines project as a way of preserving and maintaining the past, or as an argument for these works’ continued relevance and maybe, in some ways, evolution? Or both, or neither?

Stephen Petronio:
Well, just my basic instinct was that, when Trisha got sick and Merce died, I was panic stricken. And the idea of bringing other people’s work into my repertory was like… I’ve got a big ego, and to share my resources like that was a very challenging idea that I had. And it was like, “Am I going to really do that?” And then when Trisha got sick, I was like, “Of course I’m going to do that. It’s going to be radical for me to do that.”

And people often try to say, “Oh, you’re a repertory company now.” And I’m like, “You have no idea what I’m really doing.” This is a very curated project that’s looking at a very specific group of that have influenced me. And I also believe they have had a gigantic impact on the dance world in general.

So although it came from a very selfish place of wanting to hold Trisha and Steve and Merce close to me, it’s also about showing the world what geniuses they are. And many people who I’ve shown these works to haven’t seen those works before. I mean, the first time we did Glacial Decoy in Chicago, somebody came up to me in tears saying, “I’ve only seen pictures in the book and I just never thought I would get a chance to see this, thank you so much.” And to me, that’s everything. Not only because I believe Trisha Brown, no matter how well loved she is, will never have enough credit for what she’s done, also because I loved her so much. And it’s so great to have that.

The other big thing for me in Bloodlines is that I got really sick of people in the New York Times and the Post and Wall Street Journal framing my career in the way that they saw fit. And I decided that I wanted to frame my career in the way that I understand it. And so I think these works have influenced me, and they’re a frame that I want to look at my work through and that I want to—for better or worse, and sometimes it’s for worse and sometimes it’s for better—but to show the possible relationship and influence that these works have had on me.

And I’m not saying this in like, “Oh, I’m like one of them,” because I’m not. But they have been mentors that have pointed me in certain directions. And it’s very interesting for me to look at that relationship. Some of it is, I’m just beginning to understand now as I bring these works back. I certainly didn’t understand it when I was younger. Maybe with Trisha and Steve, who I worked with so closely, but as a student of the Judsons, I thought what I did was much different. So it’s a really great opportunity to read these great works of dance like a great work of literature and also to examine how they’ve actually impacted me.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Your artistic genealogy.

Stephen Petronio:
Yeah, exactly.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So coming back to the Joyce season for a second, because I don’t want to neglect Bloom. It was sort of a watershed piece, it feels like, for you. And I know there’s an overlap with New New Prayer For Now in that both feature the Young People’s Chorus of New York City, which is wonderful. But tonally, they seem… I don’t know. It’s interesting, from what you were saying earlier, the way you describe them sounds similar, and yet from watching them, they feel very different. Can you talk about why you wanted to revisit this particular work at this particular moment and how you think it speaks to the other things on the program?

Stephen Petronio:
Bloom! I’ve thought long and hard about this. I made Bloom when I moved out of the city for the first time and was living up in Putnam County, and I was like, “What the hell am I doing up here?” And it was winter going into spring. And I was like, “How can I possibly be living up here?”

And then I began to watch it happen. I watched winter go into spring. And it was violent and beautiful and all the things I love about movement. It was… I mean, yes, gardens are pretty, but they’re aggressive when they’re growing. They’re fierce. Those crocuses are out now, kids, look at them. I mean, they push up in the worst of worst, and they’ll show up anywhere. So I was very inspired by that.

And also when I went, I went to Rufus [Wainwright] for this, he said Emily Dickinson. And so those are the two great voices, and there’s so much about fulfilling and rites of passage and opening. And I had worked with the Young People’s Chorus before, and they’re all up to 18 years old. So many of them are at that moment where they’re transforming from children to adults, and it just seemed like the right thing to do when I was making it that these kids should be singing with us. And also there’s a perverse pleasure in Petronio, the nasty old punk, has got the Young People’s Chorus with him. And that was really fun. I mean, I love those kids so much and they’ve given me so much. And Francisco [J. Núñez] is a genius, as we all know.

But why did I want to bring it back now? And I thought about this a lot. I decided really not to make another new work because I’m not ready to make something new right now. And Bloom offers all that fresh-cheeked, rosy, hopeful—Whitman singing about unseen buds growing, and democracy of the body, and Emily Dickinson—the last song is “hope is a thing with feathers.” These are things we need. These are things that I need. I’m very selfish. So I thought that I want to remind my company, my dancers, myself as an artist, and my audience of who we are, what the Petronio company can be, and we could bring you a little light. And it’s profound. It’s a small thing, but it’s profound, and so I thought that was the right piece. And it’s there for us. Why not just enjoy it?

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). A small thing, but it’s profound. Like the crocuses coming up, small but profound.

So I’ll end with a huge and maybe not yet answerable question. How has this COVID experience either changed you as an artist, or maybe not changed you, maybe reconfirmed things you already knew about yourself?

Stephen Petronio:
It’s exhausted me. Everything is much harder to do now. And I think if you talk to the staff at the Joyce or any other theater or any other dance company… I guess the next generation will just understand that they have to dance in masks and that they have to do testing all the time. And as the next wave comes… But for me, I mean, I’m turning 66 on Sunday.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Happy birthday.

Stephen Petronio:
I’m at a fever pitch in my creative process. I mean, I’ve got dances to make! But everything is harder. Getting places, getting into places, finding a rehearsal space. A lot of rehearsal spaces have disappeared. It’s more difficult.

So how has it changed me? I question—and I’ve always done this—I question what dance can bring to us, and what could it bring to us now, while bombs are being dropped on people and while viruses are spreading around the world. This connection to my body is the holiest thing that I have. And so, we’ll be here, and sometime we won’t be here. So I’m going to keep making dances while I’m here. And I think it doesn’t need a bigger reason than that. And so, how has it changed me? It’s made me love what I do more. And even though it’s harder, it’s the life I’ve chosen, and I love it.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Well, that’s a beautiful place to end. Listeners, Stephen Petronio Company will be at New York’s Joyce Theater from May 17th to 22nd. We have links in the show notes where you can find more information about that. Stephen, thank you again so much for coming on today.

Stephen Petronio:
It was great to talk to you. Thanks for having me. Sorry I got so emotional.

Margaret Fuhrer:
No, I’m sorry! Somehow I always end up making people cry in these interviews. I think it’s just because, the lines of questioning these days, you have to go to these really intense places.

Stephen Petronio:
We’re living through a f**king intense moment. It’s crazy. But what is the choice? You either give up, or you go forward.

[pause]

One more big thank-you to Stephen, especially for leaning into the intensity there. As promised, we have links about the Petronio company’s Joyce season for you in the show notes, plus links to their social accounts so that you can keep up with them that way.

And thanks to all of you for subscribing to The Dance Edit Extra. We’ll be back in two weeks with another new episode. Enjoy the weekend, everyone.