Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi, dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, editor and producer of The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. Welcome to The Dance Edit Extra!

This episode, we have the acclaimed dancer and choreographer PeiJu Chien-Pott. She is probably best known for her years as a principal dancer at the Martha Graham Dance Company, where she danced essentially all of the iconic leading roles in the Graham repertoire.

During the pandemic, PeiJu began to deepen her connection to the choreographer Nai-Ni Chen, the director of the Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company, who like PeiJu was born and raised in Taiwan. They had been talking about having PeiJu choreograph for the company. Then, last December, Chen died in a tragic accident while on vacation.

Shortly afterward, Andrew Chiang, the executive director of the Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company (and also Chen’s husband), asked PeiJu to join the company’s new leadership team. Now, PeiJu is helping to carry on Chen’s mission as the group’s director of contemporary and creative dance. She is working alongside Greta Campo, the company’s interim artistic director, and Ying Shi, its director of traditional dance and preservation.

PeiJu and I talked about how throughout her career, she has helped keep invaluable artistic legacies alive, and about why Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company’s work feels crucially important today. Before we get to the interview, I want to apologize for the less-than-stellar sound quality; in the show notes, you’ll find a link to a complete transcript of the episode.

OK. Here’s PeiJu.

[pause]

Margaret Fuhrer:
PeiJu, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me on The Dance Edit Extra today.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s wonderful to speak with you, Margaret.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I’m so glad to have you on, because you have a lot to talk about right now. You’ve had this remarkable career, of course. And now, as of this year, you’ve begun a new role as choreographer and director of contemporary and creative dance for Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company. And that’s a title that contains both sorrow and hope at the same time.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes. Yeah, certainly very—it’s a very sudden tragedy that happened, in the friend circle and dance community as well. And I know Nai-Ni, I knew her since when I was in Taiwan. I moved here 13 years ago, so I know her, I’ve been working very hard for her vision in dance and her passion in creative. And we were having a lot of conversation, especially during COVID we got very close, I really involved with her organization, teaching for her platform that she provided for the dance community, and also for just for everybody to get a chance to focus on our own body during the lockdown. And everybody found the time to meet in Zoom and take one hour class. And so I joined the program. I provided some Martha Graham technique classes for people. And it’s been for really two years of ongoing communication and just supporting each other.

And then we started to have a conversation about setting the work for her company. And I was of course very excited, because I always wanted do more of a creative side of my career, started to reach into that direction. And just a couple days before, she wrote me an email about having me visiting her company rehearsal to get to meet the company dancers before I came in to set a work.

And then the tragic happened. And it was like, oh my goodness. I was just speaking with her few days ago. And I got a message from one of our friends that said she just drowned in the ocean while the family having vacation in Hawaii. And right after that, Andy, Nai-Ni’s husband, came to me, just expressed that—asked me if I could do something or help something, to help to finish up one of Nai-Ni’s last works that was scheduled to premiere at New York Live Arts the last week of March. And it was very—I couldn’t wrap my brain around, say how come this happened? It happened so fast. And I immediately say yes, I will do whatever it takes to help Nai-Ni’s work, help Nai-Ni’s company members, and for the dancers that are all in sorrow. So that is when the conversation started to take on a creative or a choreographer in her organization.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And I want to talk more about all of that and how that all happened, but I’m wondering if first we can go back in time and talk a little bit about when you first met Nai-Ni, which I didn’t realize was in Taiwan. What about her creative vision spoke to you from the beginning?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. In Taiwan, the dance world is very tight. Taiwan is an island, it’s very small, has a very small dance community, and we all know each other pretty much. And so when I was in college, was preparing to move on to my professional dance career, I was asking some mentors or seniors that graduated from the same school. I said, where should I go? Should I go to Europe? Should I go to United States? And in the States people start introducing, oh, Nai-Ni’s there, Nai-Ni from Taiwan, from one of the colleges in Taiwan, the dance department. And she was also one of the members in Cloud Gate Dance [Theatre], which is the biggest modern dance company in Taiwan. And that company has a lot of my professors in college, in high school. So, wow, and Nai-Ni’s there.

And also I was in a college, I was influenced a lot by classical—I always trained in classical ballet and a little bit of Martha Graham technique. One semester the class was taught by Ross Parks, who is Martha Graham’s very close associate rehearsal director, or was involved with her career for a long time. And then Mr. Lin, who was the director of the Cloud Gate, kind of invited him to come to Taiwan to train the first generation of Cloud Gate Dance [Theatre]. And Nai-Ni is one of the earlier generation of the company. So it’s around that community.

And so I decided to move to the States, but the first intention was not immediately go to a professional dance company. It was ideally to get a master’s degree in dance education, so I can eventually go back to Taiwan and be a dance professor in a college, I just need a degree. And during the school year, I was at NYU the first year, the English and psychology language program. And then after that, the first summer program was involved with dance education in Steinhardt at NYU. And then I was still taking classes every day after the academic class, taking classes at Steps on Broadway. And then I got into Horton jazz, and of course I couldn’t give up classical ballet training, and modern, some other styles, Limón. And Graham, yes, Graham, particularly I went all the way down to—I found an instructor, Marnie, who was like a Graham, very deep Graham, early diva, and a big name. I was like, I have to take her class.

So that is the beginning when I got into the States, in New York. And then I got into Graham. If you want to get into that, that’s a lot going on when I involved with Graham and Nai-Ni, really, because—I know her because she’s one of the few dance companies that in the states that emphasize Chinese dance, that integrates Chinese dance into Western modern dance forms. And I could see her early works a little bit influenced by maybe her time when she was working with Mr. Lin in Cloud Gate, a lot of tai chi influence, circular. Especially, she developed a special technique called kinetic spiral, it’s similar to Graham technique, but it’s not a dramatic attack, that kind of emphasis in kinetic spiral, but a lot of influence from tai chi.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I wish we had a video component, because you’re doing it as you’re saying it.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Right. It’s a little back and circular. Yes. It’s nonstop, circular motion. Yes, that is her. She developed that, also she taught that. She’d been teaching that to her company members, and also for her dancing community, the audiences. Yeah. And really—until 2017 or ’18, she invited me to perform at one of her festivals that she was hosting at the Flushing town hall. And I was invited as a guest performer at the opening of the festival. I performed a Graham solo in that program. And then we started have more conversation about it. Well, just like friends, friendship, because we’re talking about life, and then checking in—we’re from Taiwan, how have you been doing, that kind of conversation, have you been going back to Taiwan? All around that kind of very casual talk.

Until COVID. She started to contact me more often like, oh, can I teach some Graham classes for the company? They don’t have much rehearsal, but that is a way that she wanted to keep everybody involved, keep everybody focused during this time. Everybody will feel like losing each other—it’s just a way to keep us engaged in the moment. And also I benefited from that as well, that I found a time every morning and turned on the Zoom and see and communicate and see each other in front of the screen. And Nai-Ni was taking my classes as well. That was very sweet. And I got to see her moving even just through the camera, through the screen.

And then we’re like, yeah, maybe they want to have me to choreograph a new work for the company. And I was like, yeah, I think we’re moving in that direction and I like that. And I also, through teaching for the company, see some, yeah, the dancers, they’re great. They’re all very talented movers. And I definitely want to do something like that, hopefully after COVID. We’ll do something together.

And just right after that, and COVID, when everybody went back to studio, her company members, she invited me, she wrote an email to have me—OK, she’s like, we’re having an open rehearsal, maybe you come in to meet the dancers. And we started to create some work, yeah. And then a couple days later, tragic happened.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. It’s surreal. It’s surreal still.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. Yeah.

Margaret Fuhrer:
And it also felt like there was a sense that she left behind this very valuable legacy that needed protecting and that needed protectors.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Right.

Margaret Fuhrer:
And it seems like, given the relationship the two of you were developing, you were a very natural choice to be one of those protectors. But can you talk a little more about what your path was to this new role at the company?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Just a couple days after Andy called me. And he was very, very, very sad. I feel like he was lost himself, that sense of pain. And he would like to talk to me personally and just to see my willingness to step in the middle of this tragic. He was still trying to wrap up everything. And so he came to my apartment with another friend of his, very close friend of both of them and Nai-Ni’s family. And he just introduced to me how the company has been devastated too, because they have a few engagement coming up, especially—the tragedy happened in December, and January, it’s APAP. And some touring scheduled for the first week of February, and leading to the season, which is in March at New York Live Arts. Especially, one of the works that will be presented at New York Live Arts that he feels it’s urgent, he needs somebody right away to take on that part, to tighten up the work, get it ready, because it’s coming up very soon. In a sense of APAP, you want to have something to show the presenters.

And then I was like…just a lot of information. He told me there’s a lot of engagements, I’m trying to digest what is happening and trying to grasp the company, what the company is involved in in the new year, in 2022. And so I was like, okay, the most I could do is from January and wrapping up the New York Live Arts season. Because in between January and end of March is a lot going on, and I need to digest. And I started to—I can put myself in that system. And I say, yes, I would do my best to finish up the new work, which I think is most important.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So can you talk a bit more, well, let’s talk about that work, first of all, about Unity. Because you said in another interview that you are continuing Nai-Ni’s language through your artistry, and that was one very direct way that you’ve been doing that, by finishing, completing her final work. What story does that work tell, first of all, and how did you finish the telling of that story?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. So let’s start from, I received a few video clips that Nai-Ni was in. The video is the creation process, four or five video clips that are sections of the parts of Unity, that were not connected. So just like, chunk, chunk, chunk. And with the music that was planned, that was composed, not finished yet, on top of those video clips. So it just a good—it’s a draft, and it’s a very strong foundation. Like, wow, it’s a lot going on. But I want to find a way to make those sections of choreography make sense together, to put a glue, join. And music as well, because the composer composed the music based on what he saw from that video clip.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm. I didn’t realize it was made that way.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. Right. So I was like, oh, okay. So, because I could see how disconnected the video was from the music because they were like pasted on top of each other. And then was like, wow, it needs some work. But the choreography it’s very, very strong, with an emphasis on martial arts that—most of her work is influenced by martial arts. But this particular work involved weapons—not weapons, not like sword, but chopsticks, holding a bunch of chopsticks, feeding the ground, making noise. Or the bamboo sticks, the long sticks, or the spears, the long stick with the sharp ends. And that reminded me when I was in a kung fu musical, which premiered in 2019 at The Shed. So, the dancers were practicing with those bamboo sticks, made circular, spinning, using of a lot of wrist and back swing. And that reminded me when I was training, I was sent to Beijing to train with martial arts artists, masters.

Margaret Fuhrer:
For Dragon Spring Phoenix Rise?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. That’s right. For Dragon Spring Phoenix Rise. To get the accents right, get the—because martial arts originally, is it’s formed to attack. It’s a lot of attack. The reason to do the movement is either to protect yourself or to attack others, ideally it’s like that. And I was like, wow, I love that. I love the work. And I can feel like I want to really put myself into that environment in the work that I want to make everything work. And I’m so eager to do that.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And can you talk a little more too about—I think you mentioned that this work was based on a children’s story that you all learned in Taiwan.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes. It’s before—I didn’t know anything about what this work was, I saw the video, and I tend to want to see the movement first before I dig into what was the meaning, what is the tension that is behind that. I saw the dancers holding sticks and banging the ground, and pulling each other’s bunches of chopsticks out of their hands. There’s a sense of passing. That’s my interpretation. I thought of that section like passing either a group energy, or passing certain things in the community. And then I found out, oh, this it’s based on a Taiwanese children’s story: It is easy to break one chopstick, but if you hold a bunch of chopsticks together, it’s very hard to even bend it. And that is a sense of togetherness. The more people helping each other support each other, the more powerful.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Which feels like such a relevant message—I mean, for everybody right now, but especially for the members of this company right now, that’s what you’ve been doing to move things forward. Yeah.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. And it’s absolutely very touching to see even, Nai-Ni—the dancers lost her presence, but they all focused so well, wanted to put the last work—everybody pushed themselves so hard and wanted to do it together, finish it, and that was extra special and touching for me to see.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Yeah. And another example of that sort of community, you now have these three women leading the company together, which I think is also so beautiful. Can you talk a little about how you and the new leadership team, how you all work together, and then the different roles that you play now at the company?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes. So Greta, I knew Greta since I was in Martha Graham Dance Company, she was one of the students at Martha Graham school. And then she became one of the members of Martha Graham second company, while I was in the company. And then she joined the company. I remember we were performing Chronicle together. So she’s one of the group. And then she left the company to join Nai-Ni. That was 10 years ago or 11 years ago. So from 11 years ago from now, she’s been with the company a decade. And she has been Nai-Ni’s assistant, rehearsal assistant, or associate director. Because she probably—no current company member, she’s the most senior in the company right now. She knows most of the rep, she’s performed most of the work, and she knows what Nai-Ni wanted for the repertoire. So she’s taking on artistic director’s role now, and she’s been helping me a lot, understand each dancer—what’s their background, what’s their training, what are their specialties? And also talk to me about, oh, this is a work which year Nai-Ni created. And while there was this idea of the work, she’s got me a lot of information about the work and also how the company manages the rehearsal. She’s doing a lot of rehearsing. She’s a rehearsal director, running all this, renting studios, and finding places, and getting everybody all together, and then give company class, and is a lot of work.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
And Ying Shi is also one of Nai-Ni’s dancers. She has been in the company for a long time. And she is specializing in Chinese dance, classical dance. So she runs a few studios in Flushing, studios to teach Chinese dance for younger students that have their competition groups. So she’s very involved with Asian community, especially Chinese community, in the cultural dance, performing arts form. So we are a team, that I’m in charge of contemporary work and new work that I’m going to create. And she is in charge of the company’s traditional dance side.

For example, the program to serve the Asian community, especially during Chinese New Year, Lunar New Year, or some celebration, they have a special program to serve that audience. And she is in charge of that great task, and in general oversees the company in the bigger picture.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So, a triangle: three sides connected. Yeah.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Right.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Maybe this is a strange question to ask right now, since you just started this role at the company, but how would you describe your vision at this point as choreographer and as director of contemporary and creative dance? What are your hopes and goals going forward?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes, my hope is that—because I don’t really, I haven’t seen every single work of Nai-Ni’s, but I know some programs that she produced for Chinese New Year and just a few repertoire that I saw through videos—a lot of heavy Asian dance-influenced choreography. And my hope is that eventually I could use that side. Also I love Chinese dance, especially martial arts, or kung fu, or tai chi, that form. I would want to make it more contemporary, bring it more current, but still have a sense of that traditional form. I don’t want the audience to feel Nai-Ni Dance Company is a “cultural” dance company. I want to say, no, it’s a contemporary dance, that the language or the message speaks to the current, the body language is current, even though we have a strong foundation, which is Chinese cultural movement.

Margaret Fuhrer:
So looking backward and forward at the same time.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes. And I know it’s tricky. If you want to do more current dance form, sometime you lose the essence of the root of a certain type of a culture. And the thing that I want to want to develop or want to do some more experiments with—especially, the coming project that I’m taking on is using Chinese dance. Especially when doing Chinese New Year, you see a lion dance. In lion dance you put on, there’s a big lion head and a tail, there’s the lion’s body, and there’s certain step, very simple steps, that I want to incorporate with hip hop dance movement.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, wow.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
That’s my new assignment. We going to do some research. I was like, wow, that’s, it’s lion dance, it’s not as simple as I thought, it’s not only just steps and then you hold that big lion head. It’s a lot of, it’s a deeper movement, in terms of the quality of the steps that are involved to manipulate the big costumes. And on top of that, I want to have a hip hop dancer involved in that dance form. I have some friends from the professional hip hop dance world, I want to just talk to them and see how they feel and what is the idea? I want to see their input about what could be developed, and for dancers, I want to involve some hip hop artists in this project.

Margaret Fuhrer:
You have several different projects on the horizon with Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company. Can you talk, too—I think I read that you were continuing another collaboration that Nai-Ni began with another choreographer. Is that right?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes. Yes. It’s a Polish choreographer, yes, Jacek [Luminski], he created a work for Nai-Ni’s company I think a long time ago. At least I would say 10 years ago, or 15 years ago. I saw the video clips. And originally the company wanted to revise this old work back, since the company has a video. But now the new conversation is that hoping the Polish choreographer could bring kind of—it’s a collaboration with his dancers, or students, or artist partner in Poland, to come to the States, to collaborate with Nai-Ni Chen Company’s dancers, to have a workshop and then create some new dance form, choreography, or do new work together.

And the other possibility is that, we’ve been talking about in November the company, Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company, could go to Poland to join a workshop in Poland. I know this international travel, that now—it’s a big clog. So we cannot make a big commitment right now, because things happen every other week, especially during this war time in Europe. It’s making it more difficult. So, that is planning, we’re going to form a new choreography together—he creates a work, and I participate in a creative process.

Margaret Fuhrer:
I love that, all different types of cross-pollination happening.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. It’s such—Polish, it’s not very, for me—I don’t encounter a lot of Polish dance artists in the States or in Taiwan in Asia. So, that’s very special to me.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. More colors to add to your paint box.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
That’s right. And I keep thinking, it’s a whole—these years of all my career, it’s a big pot of stew. This new sauce, new spice, new herbs, new ingredient popping in, and making this stew. What is the stew going to be like? I don’t know.

Margaret Fuhrer:
PeiJu stew!

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
It’s going to be sour, sweet, and bitter, all kinds of flavors. [laughter]

Margaret Fuhrer:
So sort of zooming out a little bit now. So we’re more than a year out from the Atlanta spa shootings, and Asian Americans continue to face increased levels of violence and hate. Does that lend a greater urgency to the work that you’re doing with Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yeah. I mean, her vision is that this is, especially doing this urgent time, a lot of Asian hate involved—this is a very secure, important platform for Asian artists to have their chance, and space, and room to get together, to create, to speak out their voices through their movements, through their creativity. And that is this Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company’s vision right now, and in the next 10 years, 20 years.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Okay. I have one last question for you, and it’s kind of huge. The idea of building on artistic legacies seems to be a throughline in your career. That idea of looking forward while also looking backward—that of course was also a big part of what you were doing with the Graham company. Can you talk about why that kind of work is important to you?

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
For me, I love learning a person through their work. When I was in college, I did not like Graham technique at all, because I didn’t know Martha Graham personally. I didn’t know much about her story. Until I moved here: I started to have a chance to see her repertoire, through visiting a company rehearsal and seeing a lot of performances during their New York season. And I got pulled into her work, and I see a lot of her work and understand this bigger Martha Graham through her work.

And the same thing happened to Nai-Ni. I just love seeing a work that—it’s a bridge to know this person. And I want to…when I learned the repertoire, I started to add my personal story, my person, into—is two persons combined into one. And I create, I interpret the role, interpret the movement, the choreography, that later represents myself.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. There’s a depth and a richness to the performance that can only happen when you know the history, when you’ve seen the repertoire.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes. And because I know, I understand the story, understand the person who created this movement language, this movement makes sense to me. This connection, I feel like the movement has to—I have to feel that way to understand it, and I feel the movement makes sense. There’s a sense of connection to my brain and my soul, my feeling. And it’s a whole circle, your mind, your soul, and your movement, your muscles, your joints, it’s all connecting to one. And it feels like, oh.

When I was still doing the exercises, the technique, when I was in college, I was in pain. I was painful. Because there’s no connection. I was like, why we did this? It’s painful. I don’t know why I do this. And until I know what’s going on—ooh, I know this role. I know why Martha created it, what is the meaning of it, and what is Jocasta, what is Medea. And I learned these figures through the repertoire, I know the Greek mythology. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. Oh, this used to be very painful back then. Now it’s like, whoa, I feel so into that drama. I love that. Yeah. It’s like, Ooh, it’s me! It’s me doing that, using that to speak my own drama out.

Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember watching you onstage and thinking that it looked almost like you were possessed by Martha.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Yes! I feel like it’s in those repertoire—to do those roles is so magical. I feel like when I step on the stage or stepping into that role and I become the person. Or just another side of myself came out, that normally would not in real life. I was like, wow, I could be that crazy, like Medea!

Margaret Fuhrer:
PeiJu, you thank you so much for making the time for this conversation today. In the show notes, we have links to the Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company website and to information about its upcoming performances. We also have links to PeiJu’s personal social accounts, so you can keep up with everything she’s doing, because you’re doing a lot. Thank you again. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you.

PeiJu Chien-Pott:
Thank you so much, Margaret. It’s an honor to finally get to see you in person, even just through a screen. Nice to speak to you.

[pause]

Margaret Fuhrer:
One more thank-you to PeiJu. And thanks to all of you for subscribing to The Dance Edit Extra. We’ll be back in two weeks with another new episode. Have a great weekend, everyone.