Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi dance friends. I’m Margaret Fuhrer, content director for The Dance Edit newsletter and podcast. Welcome back to The Dance Edit Extra!
In this episode, I talk with Theresa Knudson and Roberto Vega Ortiz, co-founders of the inclusive company Ballet22. They have set out to fill a significant hole in the ballet world by offering a safe space for men and transgender and nonbinary dancers to perform on pointe—not as drag characters, but simply as themselves.
Of course, Les Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo has for decades now provided a home for men to dance on pointe in drag. Roberto is himself a veteran of the Trocks, and you’ll hear him talk about that experience, and about how the Trocks helped pave the way for Ballet22. But Theresa and Roberto are also working to present ballet choreography that breaks with gender normative traditions. Because, as they’ve discovered, when you ungender the pointe shoe, when you ungender classical ballet technique, a whole world of possibilities opens up.
One quick note before we begin: At a few points in the conversation you’ll hear the name Carlos. That is Carlos Hopuy, who is both a dancer with the company and one of its newly appointed ballet masters.
Alrighty, here are Theresa and Roberto.
[pause]
Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi, Theresa and Roberto. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Theresa Knudson:
Thank you for having us.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. Hello.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I know you’re super busy right now because you’re in the lead up to Ballet22 summer season. And I’m eager to hear more about that, but actually I wanted to start with sort of your origin story as a duo. How did the two of you first connect?
Theresa Knudson:
I’ll take this one?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Sure.
Theresa Knudson:
So Roberto moved to the Bay Area after dancing with the Trocks. And I have lived in the Bay Area for about seven years. And we got a gig, doing a little Nutcracker. And then the next day we had another gig, which was also another Nutcracker. And they were like, “This is Roberto, he’s new.” And I was like, “Oh, yeah. We rehearsed together yesterday.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Oh, yeah. We’ve met.
Theresa Knudson:
So we happened to book two of the same gigs right when he moved here. And one of those gigs was really far away and it was a two-hour commute in each direction.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
So we were carpooling. We had about four hours a day on top of rehearsal time to hangout and bond. And we bonded over that. And then the pandemic hit and we decided to go on a little vacation to my aunt’s. And during that time, it’s when we started experimenting with the early ideas of Ballet22. And the company, what it looked like then, was classes with Roberto and Carlos, who dances with the company. And they were teaching men and nonbinary dancers all around the world. And then we also made our first video where we asked dancers to submit footage, and Roberto put that together and edit it together. And I think just having all that downtime in quarantine lockdown, during the height of that when people were truly locked down, we just had a lot of time to discuss the issues we had with the field.
Roberto has been dancing on pointe for years and there’s really no outlet besides the Trocks, which is beautiful and fun, but it’s like an actor only being allowed to do comedy. And there’s so much more he wanted to explore. And personally, I have a lot of issues with some cultural habits of the classical ballet world that we were at a crossroads with pandemic. It’s like, “Do you want to stay in this field and keep complaining? Do you want to just ignore it and swallow it and just keep going? Or do you want to change it?” And I think it was just more and more obvious to us that we actually could do this and we can make it happen. And we wanted to change the field for the better. So once we finished our vacation, we got back to Oakland and buckled down…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Let’s do this!
Theresa Knudson:
… and were like, “Let’s do this. Let’s bust out the spreadsheets. Let’s get a fiscal sponsor and a website.” And we just put it together. And that’s that’s history, I guess.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. Yes.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Do you mind elaborating a little bit on what some of the cultural issues were that you found especially grating inside of ballet?
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. I think gender stereotypes for everyone, whether you’re straight or cis, ally, whatever where you fall, I think we’re all really tired of these narratives of a helpless woman who gets saved by a man, these hetero stories that are really somewhat demeaning to everyone. And I think some of our favorite ballets, like Giselle, where you do have a strong woman, but people argue it’s like, “Why’d you forgive him at the end? You should have thrown them in the lake.” So it just—even the powerful female story, sometimes it’s like, “That’s a discussion we should be having. Well, what are we telling girls? What are we telling boys?” It’s like, “You’re always going to fall in love with the princess. And the girls are always waiting for that prince to save them.” And it just it’s very tiring. And I do think that’s why contemporary work is so popular and people love it, because a lot of the times you look at a Forsythe ballet and that’s stripped away.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
You adjust the movement. And I think that’s why the classics, sometimes people are like, “Oh, they’re dying.” And it’s just not relevant to really anyone anymore.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
And with that, of course comes ableism, racism, ageism, sexism, and of course a ton of homophobia. That’s just—it’s so one-note. And while we really love the art form and the ballets that are a part of the history, it’s—as someone who loves this field, I just want more.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm. And also body type issues as well. It’s very hard to find a job if you don’t fit into this idea of the perfect ballet dancer, physically, and then it comes with of course with race, but also how tall are you or how thin are you? Or—and that’s issues that we’ve had, trying to make it into this field, that it’s very one-way. And then we’re also trying to break that stereotype about what a ballet dancer can look like or should look like. So, yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. A lot of “shoulds,” in heavy quotation marks, running around in ballet that don’t necessarily have to be “shoulds.”
So tell me a little then about the company’s mission as you first conceived of it. What was your vision for addressing some of those problems, and then has that mission also evolved over time?
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah, I would say the goal was, “Let’s put men on pointe.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And then we were like, “Wait a minute, we need to include nonbinary folks, tran folks.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
We really had to think about how we wrote our mission statement, because of course, the initial gut reaction was like, “Oh, it’s men on pointe, but in the outside of a drag comedy context.” And I think the initial thought was, “Let’s offer something in addition to what the Trocks offer.” And then we realized—
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
—actually, this is its completely own thing. And I would say the biggest turning point for us is we realized we were commissioning a lot of ballets by queer artists. And we’re like, that’s our secondary point. So as much as we’re breaking gender stereotypes by presenting men and nonbinary dancers on pointe, we’re also dedicated to conditioning works by the LGBT community to bring representation to that community on the stage. So I think that that was—
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And also the Latinx without even realizing—
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
—not only queer voices, but also, again, the minorities.
Theresa Knudson:
Mm-hmm.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Especially being here in California, it’s, I mean, the Latinx community, it’s so large, it’s so big. And without realizing we’ve also been commissioning a lot of Latinx choreographers. And, yeah. That also changes the narratives and that also changes how you approach the work.
Theresa Knudson:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Those are two offshoots that weren’t fully… I think they were in the heart, we just hadn’t expressed it, but definitely, we’ve added those statements to the mission.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. So, as you’ve said, inevitably people are going to compare Ballet22 to the Trocks, which of course, Roberto, you also danced for. Can you talk a little more—as you’ve already started talking about—how your company is different, and why that difference is important? And Roberto, I’m wondering if you could speak to performing with both companies and how those two different modes of performing are fulfilling in different ways.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. So I think… Well, right off the bat, a difference would be the aspect of being in drag and performing comedy. There is a specific—back in Trockadero, the dancers are emulating the old traditional Russian ballerina, very old. And it’s very stylistic. It’s a very specific, even Imperial dancer, even before Vaganova. And it really goes back to the root, and that’s why I had such fun with the dancing and even the knowledge that I’ve gained, it’s because the choreography and even who you work with that are setting the work, they really know the work. And it’s like you really get that almost immediate access as far as you can go, right, to that original choreography or approach. Yeah. So I think, again, they’re so different that there is an audience for both of them, while not feeling that they’re watching the same thing. Again, Ballet22, we dance as our authentic selves. And we present just as we look on the street, with no wigs, no heavy makeup, no pink tights.
Theresa Knudson:
Facial hair.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Facial hair. Yeah. Facial hair, your hair any way you want it. Again, just how you would like to present yourself as you’re walking down the street. And that’s super valuable. Because growing up, I really loved dancing that way, but of course, everyone told me, it’s like, “Well, if you want to do this, there’s only one way you can do it.” And that was problematic for my family, for some friends, for some teachers, because they don’t necessarily want to see you in drag—which of course I have the most fun and I miss it so much now that I don’t do it at all. And yeah, and I think the Trocks is such a fun company. You get to tour the world and you get to, again, perform these amazing works. They’re mostly classical works. And this is where we also are different, that even though you do have some contemporary or modern versions of some auditions like Cunningham or you do a little bit more Balanchine or Robbins, it’s mainly classical. And in Ballet22, we tackle pretty much everything. It’s classical, it’s contemporary, it’s neoclassical.
Theresa Knudson:
And the new commissions.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And the new commissions, and the queer stories that really change the approach in how you dance. And I think, again, just dancing as yourself is very powerful. And even though you’re telling a story, you’re telling a story as yourself and not as a character or a persona given to you. And I think that’s just… Yeah. Again, both are great. Both are different. Both are necessary, I believe, in the field and they paved the way. And if it wasn’t for them, we wouldn’t be able to do exactly what we’re doing right now. So, yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. The idea of the Trocks paving the way for Ballet22 is interesting because, yeah, when the Trocks were first founded, it was sort of this idea that the only way audiences would sort of tolerate a man on pointe was if it was funny. Like, “We’re in on the joke, we’re making fun of it.” And then it turned out that was actually a really fascinating art in itself. And people still get a lot of fulfillment out of it. But then, yeah, companies like Ballet22, now you are allowed to be a man on pointe without it having to be funny. That does feel like a huge step forward. Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And I think, and again, just all the history, I mean, they—
Margaret Fuhrer:
Uh-huh.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
It was that time, right? It was the late 70s, the 80s, the 90s, such an important time for the queer community in history and they were there and they were doing it.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. So when you allow male and transgender and nonbinary artists to dance on pointe without the expectation of humor or caricature, what kinds of creative possibilities does that start opening up?
Theresa Knudson:
Endless.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
All of them. Yeah, right?
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. It’s interesting that—we’ve said this before: it’s like the ballet world decided that you can’t put yellow and purple together, ever. And then we’re like, “Let’s put those two colors together.” So now it’s, “What can you create with that palette as itself, by itself, and added to the rest of the colors?” I mean, really statistically the possibilities are endless.
I would say, despite controversy about it, human anatomy is different. So when you’re experimenting with different anatomies, you’re going to have different movement.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yup.
Theresa Knudson:
And I love the ballets where Roberto’s on pointe and then he turns around and lift someone over his head. And I’m like, “I could never execute that rep,” and that would’ve never been created if the choreographer was in the room with me and someone with my body type. So it’s really exciting to see how the choreographers come into the room. Our policy is just hands off.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
Once we hire someone to set a piece, we’ve already decided to trust them fully and just give them the room. And that’s something that I think a lot of choreographers, one, they don’t have that even stepping into a traditional company, they’re told like, “This is who you’re going to work with and feature this person.” And we’re always just like…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
… “Do your thing.” So there’s a freedom, I think, as a creator that we’re working hard to allow. But then also, you have all these bodies that you’re like, “Oh, my God. What am I going to do with this?”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
And the pieces have come out really incredible. So we’re excited to keep collaborating with new people and seeing what they’re going to create.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. And what’s cool it’s like at the same way that possibilities and the capabilities that these new bodies working together can create, it will be so different, that it will never recreate or be ever the same as if you have…
Theresa Knudson:
A male, female.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
… a male, female. And I think that’s what’s so wonderful because we will never lose that because, of course, we’re always creating and evolving. So those new choreographies, those new movements are new tossed salad that will continue with those bodies, and then creating these bodies, and it’s the same, but so different. And I think that’s what makes it super interesting. And again, that’s why both should coexist.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. We do get a lot of inquiries, more than I was expecting, like, “What about the women?” I’m like, “Oh, well, the women are okay to dance on pointe in really every other company.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Everywhere. Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
So that’s an interesting reaction that I think people, they see our vision as like, “Oh, this is for everyone, it’s equitable.” And so there’s a little bit of pain, I think when women aren’t involved in that. And I think we’ve talked about integrating a piece here and there, but just as a company, I think we’re really trying to create this safe space for men and nonbinary dancers that they have a place. And so you were saying, we’re not trying to take away, of course, from traditional work.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
We love that work and it exists, and it’s alive, and it’s well, I think we’re just trying to create a small pocket of space that’s different.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
It’s a little branch…
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
… that goes away from the tree.
Theresa Knudson:
Exactly.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And it’s also been very interesting how many female dancers have reached out.
Theresa Knudson:
Reached out. Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Wanting to be considered or for a project or something, which has been pretty amazing.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. It’s nice.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
I think having that—female dancers, I guess, I don’t know where they’re coming from, but where I see they understand or and they validate what we’re doing rather than thinking that, “Oh, they’re taking away from us,” or something.
Theresa Knudson:
Mm-hmm.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Which some people have in the past, which again, we’re not taking anything away, we’re just adding.
Theresa Knudson:
Adding.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
So, yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. You’re anticipating some of my next questions, because I was curious too about whether… Because you’ve said you hope to sort of become fully inclusive, and yeah, how do female-identifying dancers fit into that picture?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Margaret Fuhrer:
But it’s interesting that women have actually been reaching out to you like, “Hey, we’d love to be part of this.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And again, we will eventually, even if it’s for something special or something, but there are a few ideas that we have that we would like to have.
Theresa Knudson:
And stay tuned.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Stay tuned. Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And I find your approach to programming really striking. You’ve started talking about this already too, but the idea that a Ballet22 program usually includes a world premiere, and then a contemporary work restaged on these different bodies, and then something from the classical canon—I’m wondering if you can go a little further into why these are sort of the three pillars of your approach and why you need each one of them.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Well, I think, first of all, it’s showing the diversity in how the company dancers can actually tackle all these works, that there’s so many new companies out there and they usually focus more, because they’re new on contemporary works. And again, because of all these issues that we’ve spoken before, they immediately stay away from the classical rep, or they’re like, “Ballet’s not—classical ballet’s not for me.” And they steer away and they really go the other way, which is great. But we’re like, “Well, the dancers are so amazing, and so, technically, amazing that they can actually do all three.” And so that’s on the company side.
But then for the audience, it’s giving them a little bit of everything. Because not everyone… Then that way, someone can identify with something. So not everyone necessarily loves to classical ballet, especially our younger audiences. But then they have the contemporary or the neoclassical or something newer or then it goes the other way. Or actually, they love oh three and there’s something always for someone.
Theresa Knudson:
It’s a complete meal.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah, exactly. A full course meal.
Theresa Knudson:
We’re offering all of the… Yeah. All the courses and dessert. And I think to piggyback off of what you’re saying, sometimes after the shows, people are like, “I just loved the Giselle. That was the best.” And then it was like, “Oh, my god, the premiere, that was amazing.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And it’s really funny that those things could exist on a program, but they do. And it’s like a meal, you feel very satisfied being able to see that the dancers can not only execute technical things, you see a ballet that has been, I guess, forbidden, being done.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
So Roberto is a bit of a historian, he knows all the versions of each ballet. He’s like, “Oh, this is a Russian one. And then this is a Cuban version.” And then he really knows his stuff. And so when Roberto restages a classical piece or romantic piece, he really approaches it with the care of a historian. We’re not watering down these ballets, they’re really being preserved, but again, they have been forbidden for men. So just the act of even reproducing it with no changes and outside of drag is, hasn’t been done.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. It’s a huge change.
Theresa Knudson:
So that makes those ballets that sometimes feel a little like, “Oh, these people are doing this ballet again”—it makes it, just that alone, makes it feel fresh.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. Interesting to watch again, yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. And then the other fun about those ballets is we get to play with the costumes. And we really try to honor the tutu. So for example, we did Paquita and just a classic plate tattoo… Oh, my God. I need to resay that for the record. A classic plate tutu. [laughter]
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Tutu. [laughter]
Theresa Knudson:
But the top was a men’s jacket, a sleeveless men’s jacket.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Sleeveless. Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
So it was… I’ve never worn a tutu that was a jacket like that. It was this military machismo with the femininity of a tutu. And I think that’s everything we stand for, is like, “You can do both. You can be both. You’re just you wearing a costume portraying something, you’re not, ‘Oh, I’m in drag.'” And I think that’s been really fun. Our Giselle, it looked very standard, but we had it underneath the nipples.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And the nipples were exposed, sheer. Which, I mean, I think if things were different in the US, that would be a costume that women could wear…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Could also wear.
Theresa Knudson:
… and also men’s wear as well. But that just that little moment, that little nipple moment underneath some sheer fabric, it’s really radical in a way. They’re still romantic tutus, doing the choreography as pure as possible.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
So I really enjoy seeing these ballets just getting a slap in the face, but also, being loved at the same time. It’s really, you’re like, “Whoa, what am I seeing here?” It’s incredible.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Yeah. These really old-school works as acts of quiet revolution.
Theresa Knudson:
Yes.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And you have made some slight alterations to the choreography in these classical works, too. I know, we were talking in a previous conversation about your Sugarplum Pas de Deux, when the dancer doing the part of the fairy is caught in a fish, and then turns around and catches the cavalier in a fish.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah!
Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s so beautiful. Are there more aspects like that in the rest of your classical pieces that you do? When and how do you make those kinds of changes?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Well, I think, really Nutcracker has been the most that we’ve changed so far.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
It is something that we want to continue tackling. It is a bit challenging depending on who you’re having. Because I often have dance with Evan, for example, who is 6’4″.
Theresa Knudson:
Mm-hmm. And you are?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And I am 5’7″. So even though, I partnered him, because I did in the first show.
Theresa Knudson:
I was going to say, in the Swan Lake, this last one, Swan Lake, didn’t you have a moment where you assisted the unexpected guest?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Oh, the unexpected guest, you’re right.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. We’ve done—and even in our first show, when we did Juntos, which we are doing again in July—since it was filmed, we were able to change within the same piece. Either in one movement you were the typical flat or you were in on pointe. So I was able to partner Evan actually even in a lift and everything. And promenades on pointe.
Theresa Knudson:
Mm-hmm. That was amazing.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Which was funny, because I was the shortest one in it.
Theresa Knudson:
But the other couple next to you had the same height dynamic.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
I thought it was very interesting to watch someone shorter promenade someone taller, because there’s an underspiral that’s happening instead of this, equal planets are shifting on the same axis. There was this curve under that, we don’t see that, because the ballet world has decided that short men can’t partner taller women.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Can’t taller women. Yup.
Theresa Knudson:
So we haven’t seen it anywhere, which was really neat.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
I really would love to see that in more traditional ballet.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
What we’ve talked, and Theresa had said many times, like, it’s not that female dancers can’t partner or they can’t do these things. It’s like, if you’re not taught how to do it, if you’re not trained how to do it, we are trained to partner…
Theresa Knudson:
In the double tours.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
…the double tours.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And to be jumping, and it is trainable. So I would love for that, too. Because we have seen some moments that I’m like, “Oh, that was so nice.” Supporting always even another female or another male dancer. So I think it would be very fun to see that.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. To keep that trend going.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. Keep that. Because it is possible, and I think it would be a new challenge. And it would be fun for a female dancer to also experience that just the same way we are doing it on the other side.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Beautiful options for telling different kinds of stories, too, if that dynamic, the male female dynamic isn’t always assumed.
Okay. So let’s talk now about your upcoming summer season happening at the end of July. What will be on this program and what were your goals as you were putting it all together?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Okay. So again, we’re starting with the classical ballets. We are doing the grand pas de deux from Don Quixote, from the Act III. We’re going to have the bridesmaids, they’ll be there. So it will be a little bit more of a small suite. So that’ll be exciting. We will do in the more romantic, La Sylphide, the second act grand pas de deux as well. So again, this is like, “How can we make still within the traditional ballets, but you’re still doing different things?” In our first show we did Paquita and Giselle, now we did Don Quixote and La Sylphide. And then we are restaging Juntos, which has never been done in San Francisco in the Bay Area. We were lucky enough to tour it to Santa Barbara and to perform it in our first digital show ever, which was very fun. There is one movement that we haven’t done. So we’re going to tackle that. So even if you have seen it…
Theresa Knudson:
There’s going to be a new movement.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
… there’s still going to be a new movement, that, it was original too, and we just hadn’t gotten to it yet. So that’s going to be exciting. And then we’re going to have two new premieres. There is a Puerto Rican artist, Fernando Ramos, who will come and set more contemporary duet. And then we will have Natasha Adorlee. She’s the one who, from the team, that has recorded all of our shows, and she’s our person to go to.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. So if you’ve ever seen any of our digital performances, Natasha and her partner, Max…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Max.
Theresa Knudson:
…filmed those for us. So she’s been part of the team since day one.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Since day one really.
Theresa Knudson:
She’s also a dancer and a choreographer…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yes.
Theresa Knudson:
…in addition to being a filmmaker, which is one of the reasons why she’s such a great dance filmmaker…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
…because she’s an active artist herself. But we’re really excited to now bring her on in this role.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
In this new role.
Theresa Knudson:
And the ultimate goal with that piece is that we will turn it into a film. So keep your eye out. This will be the stage premiere of a larger film project that will be collaborating with Natasha.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And, yeah. That’s the show.
Theresa Knudson:
Two classics, one restaged neoclassical, and two brand-new contemporary.
Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s a way in for everybody.
Theresa Knudson:
Yes.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
So I wanted to zoom out a little bit now and talk about training, because it seems like opening up ballet training beyond the binary is sort of a critical next step in this process. Because it’s not that the types of dancers who are drawn to Ballet22 haven’t always existed. They definitely have. They’ve just so often been pushed out of the ballet pipeline so early, because they didn’t fit a certain box. So, I think you’ve said that you have plans on the training front, too. Why is the education aspect so crucial here?
Theresa Knudson:
That’s everything.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. Isn’t it like Balanchine said? Like how he said, “But first, a school.”
Theresa Knudson:
“But first, a school.”
Margaret Fuhrer:
Although, apparently, he didn’t actually say that.
Theresa Knudson:
Really? Oh, no! Nevermind. [laughter]
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
But still the thought of that, right?
Theresa Knudson:
Right.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
It’s so crucial.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Because not where like—yes, there are dancers out there that could do it, and they’re beautiful, but really—
Theresa Knudson:
Well, so many people, because there aren’t programs or training at home, right?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
So there’s a lot of dancers that we see that were like, “Wow, they’re incredible. We really want to get our hands on them and coach them.” And have Carlos, we’ve actually just appointed him one of the ballet masters.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Masters.
Theresa Knudson:
So Carlos is so experienced. So senior. Done all the principal roles. Trained in Cuba. Carlos has been on pointe for as long as most females, started in when he was 13…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
13. Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
…with his mom at home. But he has so much to offer. We have a lot of people on our team that have a lot to offer. And when we see folks dancing on pointe on Instagram, we’re like, “Oh, we wish we had visas in a school and a program to bring them just so that we could have some time with them in-person,” as I think Zoom training has been a savior for all of us during pandemic, but there’s nothing like someone helping you wrap and getting your heels forward, or showing you in-person—that’s, I think, something that going back into the theaters after the pandemic, that we all know that when we saw a live show for the first time, it was like—I mean, the first live show I saw to the pandemic, I cried just to see real people…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
…had memorized something and put lights on and did their thing. That it’s really powerful and you can’t replace it. And film is gorgeous, and I think I’ve really gotten into dance film during pandemic, but there’s nothing like working in-person. So we would really love that, as our funds and support increase and continue to grow, that’s something that’s huge for us. We really would love to have a training program, maybe even an apprentice program to start…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Absolutely.
Theresa Knudson:
…integrating people into the company.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And we’ve had actually a few people who have reached out about, “Oh, do you have training?” Because not everyone is at the professional level. So it’s like they see and it’s like, “Oh, not yet, not yet, but hopefully, hopefully soon.” And it’s very important to us for sure. Because then, these will be the dancers of the future.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And even if they don’t end up dancing with us—because not everyone that goes to the school of a company will end up there, that’s just a reality—but really, we prepare them for anything. Because our approach is, it’s to be able to do everything anywhere, and we’re going to support them and into all of that. So it’s not, “Oh, you’re only going to dance on pointe. So that’s how you’re going to learn.”
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. I would say partnering is huge in the company, too.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And a lot of the men who have come—especially, it’s funny, the straight men—are like, “This is so fun, partnering guys. It feels different.” So it’s really an education for everyone, since it hasn’t been done. But yeah, I would say that education component is so critical for changing things. I think we’re looking a lot at conversations about diversity, right? And people are upset that there aren’t more people of color in companies. But if there aren’t people of color who are trained to get into those companies…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Training. Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
…that’s where the issue is. And I think when you look at why aren’t there more people of color, why aren’t there more people with limb differences or whatever the thing you’re looking at, and going, “Why am I not seeing, why aren’t there more tall women? Why aren’t there shorter men?” Whatever you’re looking at, and saying, “Why am I not seeing that in the professional field?” It’s because somewhere in their education, they were cut or not supported…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
…or given the opportunity that they needed or yeah, that they needed to get to that professional level. So I think really if anyone has a qualm about, not even the dance world, but representation at the top, it’s like, “What is the pathway to get there?” And it’s somewhere along that pathway that people aren’t getting the support or they’re getting pushed out, told they’re too short or too muscular or too whatever. And then that’s when we lose people. You can’t just hire people because you’re trying to check boxes. You have to really invest in them, truly.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
And that’s the whole journey, not just the end game. So I think that’s another thing that’s really important to us, is we’re not just trying to get men to put shoes on.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
We really want people to do this correctly, safely, just like any other female would to have to train in order to dance on pointe professionally. We want that experience for everyone.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Better representation requires more and better pipelines.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s how it happens.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Absolutely.
Margaret Fuhrer:
What are some of your other longer term plans and dreams for Ballet22?
Theresa Knudson:
Touring.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Touring. Full-time company.
Theresa Knudson:
Yes. Yeah. Full contracts for dancers. It’s challenging, because right now, we have to get people when they’re laid off or if they’re freelance.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Are available.
Theresa Knudson:
They don’t have a project.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
So sometimes it’s very hard to coordinate shows. And then, of course, that makes it hard for us to announce a season. So having that stability, knowing that we could, I guess, having financial stability is our goal.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
So we know that we can announce the season and hire people at an equitable amount would be just everything to be able to provide that and have that be something that people can look to as a goal.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And be like, “Oh, I want to be part of this company,” that would just be incredible.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And be able to have your core group, and because right now, everyone comes from everywhere, which is very fascinating and amazing. But then everyone, again, comes from different backgrounds or they’re doing different dance styles are whatever it is and it’d be great to start building our own little… Again, how do we want to take it forward? And it’s seeing how we can put our input into the dancers and then start, yeah, working towards the rep, the different rep. And that would be possible if the dancers are here for a longer period of time.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Not just for a month and then see you next time. But, yeah. And then touring, again, I did it with Trockadero, and not only it’s an amazing experience, just touring because you get to see the world, but it’s also that visibility and people being able to see you. And we are here in the Bay Area, we’re in such a lucky and amazing place. But then at the same time, it’s like, “Well, but they’re used to it.” They’re like that.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Preaching to the choir.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. We know they’re going to be accepting and they’re going to be hopefully into it. But then it’s all these other communities and all these other places, especially, within the US and the world, they also need to see this. And that I know they want to see this, because we’ve had also people from even Spain, the UK, and just other places in the US, and they’re like, “Come to my city, please.” And we were like, “Oh, my God.”
Theresa Knudson:
Well, recently we went to perform at this festival called Treefort in Boise.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yes.
Theresa Knudson:
And we were like, “Okay. Boise.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
We had no idea what to expect.
Theresa Knudson:
We didn’t know what we were going to get.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And it was the best! I mean, we were on the street and people would be like, “That’s Ballet22.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. We felt like celebrities.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. So it was, I think, the people in Boise, they’re very artistic, and they’re really proud of their town, and they’ve built this incredible community, and they’re really accepting and welcoming. And we had such a great experience, but they told us, they were like, “We don’t see work like this. This is so different and so inspiring.” And like, “Please come back.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And so we know that we can have that impact and experience in other cities, too.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Absolutely.
Theresa Knudson:
And so I think that experience was very reassuring that touring is a boost for us, emotionally, because it’s nice to know that what you’re doing is making an impact for someone. But also just that feedback we got, we’re like, “Okay. We can do this. People, people are excited.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. I hope that’s a lesson that more traditional ballet companies are learning as well, because it seems there’s a lot of fear when it comes to programming. “We don’t know if audiences are ready for this.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And I think we have to give audiences a little more credit than we do.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Because yeah, Boise was ready for Ballet22. Audiences everywhere are much more open, I think, to many of these ideas than we might assume.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Or even if they would think they’re not, you have to trust them a little bit…
Margaret Fuhrer:
Show them!
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
…and show that. It’s kind of that dish that you never thought you would like, but then you taste it, and you’re like, “Oh, wait, what? This is actually great.” So it’s sometimes audiences don’t even know they like it.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. I mean, I think our donor-base, our audience-base is maybe what people think is like, “Oh, it’s a lot of queer people coming to our shows,” but it’s actually very mixed.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
We have children coming to the shows. We have elderly people. We have straight couples.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Straight couples.
Theresa Knudson:
We have queer couples of all kinds. The age range is incredible. And also, yeah, I think a lot of people come to our shows and they’re like, “This audience is young and diverse.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Which is not common.
Theresa Knudson:
For ballet.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
And I think we’re just trying to reach people everywhere. But I think we’re also not just trying to target people. I think we’re like, “This is what we’re offering. Please come and try it.” And it’s been surprising to see who that is. And it’s not your typical ballet audience. And I think because we’re not targeting a group of people, we’re like, “We don’t just need rich donors who are at a certain age demographic.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
We’re like, “This is ballet to the people.” And I think our audience reflects that. And it would be nice if other companies were a little more open to broadening who they’re advertising to or who they’re reaching out to and how they’re reaching out to them. Because I think if you build a ballet audience, our hope is that people see us and then they’re like, “I want to go see LINES.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right. Right.
Theresa Knudson:
“I want to go see San Francisco Ballet. I want to go see ODC and Smuin.” We hope that people who come to us and say, “I’ve never seen a ballet before,” now start going to see the other companies in the Bay Area.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
And that we can actually build an audience, a dance audience if we’re not excluding people.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm. Everybody benefits from that kind of inclusivity.
Theresa Knudson:
Yup. Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
So I have one last question, and it’s a huge question. How do the two of you conceive of the role that gender should or should not play in ballet right now?
Theresa Knudson:
I think…
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
I mean, what is gender?
Theresa Knudson:
What is gender? I think cis, straight female, I’ve enjoyed being cared for by a man on stage, being held, being lifted, being twirled, knowing that I can go for that whip and do four and that they’re going to make me do four more. I love that. And I’ve done some ballets where I’ve portrayed really typical feminine roles, Sugarplum, different fairy tales. And these are incredible memories for me that I cherish and I don’t ever want that to go away. But I also, as I was stating in the beginning of the interview, there’s some of these ballets where I’m like, “Okay. These girls are slaves.” Or, Coppélia, why’d she go back to Franz? I have so many issues with Coppélia. Wait, that’s not even her. Coppélia is not—
Margaret Fuhrer:
Swanilda. [laughter]
Theresa Knudson:
Right! [laughter]
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah! Why’d she go back to him?
Theresa Knudson:
I’m not interested in that. So I really want to see that torn down, and I’ve never done a ballet where I’ve been able to reject a male, or, there is always this love interest, and it would be nice if some ballets—I think that maybe that’s why people like Nutcracker, because when you’re a Flower or a Snowflake, you’re just dancing, you’re not really belonging to anyone in any way.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right.
Theresa Knudson:
And I think we just need more options and more diversity, because the same story over and over again is tiring.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Mm-hmm.
Theresa Knudson:
And as much as I have loved being lifted and turned and cared for, I want other people to have that experience of what it feels like to be partnered. And then, of course, I’ve never partnered anyone. Maybe I love it and I didn’t get to try. So I would say gender is something that people identify with or they don’t, and I think identity is important. And so if you identify as a female or male, you should be able to express that part of you and that shouldn’t be done away with, but for other people who don’t have that as an identifier, they want to reach deeper beyond and be identified in another way. They shouldn’t be alienated by the work.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
I also as much as I love partnering men and nonbinary dancers or being partnered by a binary one, I do cherish, I love my moments partnering female dancers and how special that is. And again, the capabilities and the differences that the body types, because there are different bodies and the type of choreography that you can do with that. And yeah, just I love all this possibilities that and just like, “Why does it?” I hate boxes and I hate trying to call something a name, but you have to define. And it’s like, “Why do you have to define it? Why do you have to be this or that? Or why do people need to know?”
I don’t, I’ll never understand that about society. You always have to be something. It’s like, how about we just don’t call it anything? And let’s explore. Or even let’s do something that has been traditionally this way, and how can we change the narrative, or how can we change the approach or how can we change things? So that gender doesn’t need to be, for example, something important…
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. Like taking gender off of the top of the list and maybe moving it down to number 32?
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right. It’s like, “Why is that?” Yeah. Or like—we were talking with someone else about the machismo culture, and especially, I’m from Puerto Rico. So my experience has been very much with the Cuban training and my teachers and the dancers that I’ve worked with. And it’s a very machista culture, just how it is, and just Latin culture and everywhere, right? But especially, in seeing that and how you approach something in the room, how it’s very like, “Okay. Females will do this and male dancers will do that.” And that has always bothered me. And being over here, I forget about it. And then when I see that or especially, going back to Puerto Rico, I see that. And I’m like, oh, it really shocks me now.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah. It’s grinding to my gears, too. I remember one time, I won’t say when it was. We had a rehearsal and it was like, “Okay, ladies, put your pointe shoes on and guys are going to work on their tours.” And I was like, “Wait. So then we don’t have time to do, we’re not going to practice our fouettés and our tours?” I already have my pointe shoes on, because I always wear my pointe shoes at barre. I’m not one of those people that can just slap it on and start doing turns. I like preheating my shoes and being in them for a while. But then, I was trying to do the tours on pointe and the fouettés. And I’m just like, “Wow, we’re missing a part of class.” How come we’re not all like, “Let’s all do our tours and fouettés, and now everyone go put on their pointe shoes,” and just forbidding people to do pointe and forbidding people to jump and turn is really silly. And I teach a lot and I’ve seen three-year-old girls do full tours.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
So I’m like, “Wait a minute. They’re better at this than I am.” But I think it’s just our responsibility to train people.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Absolutely. And a memory that I have, just to finish my thought. It’s actually here at San Francisco Ballet School. It was one of the summers that I went when I was 18 and we were doing a male technique class, the extra class of the grand pirouettes, the double tours, all the fun stuff that I actually hated to do, but it was very empowering too. There’s this dancer who is now, I believe she’s at Boston Ballet, her name is Chisako Oga, and it was so wonderful, she was in the company, I believe she was an apprentice or something, and she was doing the class with us. And it was so beautiful to have her in her pointe shoes doing all the double assemblés and double en tournants, double tours, fouettés, à la seconde pirouettes on pointe. And she didn’t care. She was going for it and actually excelling at it. And I was like, “Why is this not…
Theresa Knudson:
A thing? Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
…a thing?”
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Women can do it. And it was also so graceful and so beautiful. For me, that was so striking because, of course, you have a room full of bunch of men and there she is, she’s super tiny, too. And she didn’t care. She would go for it.
Theresa Knudson:
Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
And that was very refreshing and inspiring to watch.
Theresa Knudson:
That’s so cool. Yeah. Well, that’s interesting too, that you bring up being able to see her execute “men’s” steps. You’re seeing a different approach, because instead of being like, “Ahhh!” and going for it, she had a different approach. And then for me, taking class and teaching at Ballet22, it’s things that I thought you have to go really delicately, and sometimes I see these dancers and they’re just like, “Get on pointe and stay, squeeze and reach.” And I’m like,wow, I think if I had seen all of you when I was 12 to 14, like that age where you’re really impressionable about like, “What is pointe supposed to look like?” I think I would be able to maybe execute some things better.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Theresa Knudson:
Hops on pointe were always so scary for me. But you guys just jump, you’re like, “Here I go,” bam, bam. And I would love to… It’s like we really can share how you were saying with this woman, a delicate approach, that could actually maybe make it so you’re not trying to do a triple and falling off your leg. Maybe a little less push on the gas pedal can go longer way. And then the same for the girls. It’s like, “Step on that gas pedal. Let’s go.”
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Exactly.
Theresa Knudson:
So I think that there’s a definitely a benefit to having a representation of a different way to execute than just that standard that you always see.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Right. Then if we keep gendering everything and we keep saying, “This is for one, and this is for the other,” and it will never be able to mix and match our interchange, then we’re missing out, and then this will stay locked in a box and just not being able to live up to their full potential.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Yeah. Ballet technique is just a bunch of tools. So give everybody all the tools and see what happens. You’ll build beautiful things, even more beautiful things.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Theresa and Roberto, thank you so much for taking the time, especially since I know you’re super busy right now. Listeners, in the show notes we’ve got a link to their website and their social accounts so you can find out more about their upcoming season—that’s at the Cowell Theater in San Francisco—and about everything else they’re working on. I’m looking forward to seeing how you continue to transform the ballet world.
Theresa Knudson:
Thank you.
Roberto Vega Ortiz:
Yeah. Thank you so much, Margaret.
[pause]
One more big thank-you to Theresa and Roberto. And thanks to all of you for subscribing to The Dance Edit Extra. We’ll be back in two weeks with a very exciting new episode, so, see you then. And in the meantime, have a great weekend, everyone.