Margaret Fuhrer:
Hi there dance friends, and welcome to the first official episode of The Dance Edit Extra! I’m Margaret Fuhrer, and I’m so excited to have you with us on this new adventure.
I knew we needed a really fantastic guest for our debut, and the multitalented, super smart, super funny James Whiteside more than fit the bill. He is a podcaster’s dream—no surprise, I guess, since he has a podcast of his own.
A quick note here for context: We recorded this conversation a couple of months ago, before the Delta variant started surging in the U.S., which is why we sound so cheery in the interview’s opening moments. Feels a little tonally discordant now, but, ah, it was a more innocent time.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the conversation with James. Thanks again for subscribing to the Edit Extra—be sure to check back here for new episodes every other Saturday. And in the meantime, have a listen to our weekly news podcast, The Dance Edit Podcast, out every Thursday. You can find out more about that and about everything happening at The Dance Edit by visiting thedanceedit.com. Enjoy!
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Margaret Fuhrer:
I am very lucky to be here now with the one and only James Whiteside. Hi, James! Thank you so much for joining today.
James Whiteside:
I’m happy to be here. How are you doing?
Margaret Fuhrer:
Good! I mean, whatever that means these days. There’s light at the end of the tunnel. Better than I was a couple of weeks ago.
James Whiteside:
Yeah, same here. Things are looking up. I was able to go to a bar recently and it was fun. Go figure.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Out and about-ness! I miss it.
I feel like, especially for dance folks, this man needs no introduction, but I’m going to introduce him a little bit anyway. James is a principal dancer with American Ballet Theatre, where he’s danced pretty much every leading role in the repertoire and originated a bunch of new roles as well; he has choreographed at ABT and elsewhere. You might also know him as pop musician JbDubs, or drag artists Ühu Betch, or as host of the podcast The Stage Rightside with James Whiteside, or as a social media influencer. And now he’s a writer, too: His book Center Center, described as an “almost-memoir,” comes out on August 17th. Blurbed by Jennifer Garner, no less.
So, an almost-memoir—what does that mean, for starters? And then, where did the whole idea to write a book, and especially this kind of book, first come from?
James Whiteside:
Well, I’m going to be 37 when the book actually comes out on August 17th. So it didn’t put—
Margaret Fuhrer:
Is that on your birthday?
James Whiteside:
No, no. My birthday is July 27th. I’m a Leo, baby. But I just—I didn’t want to write a memoir, because I’m not an old man yet. So I wanted to do something—I mean, I enjoy writing very much, and so I’ll just tell you how it all came about. So an editor from Penguin, a junior editor reached out to me on Instagram and said, “Hey, I think you’re funny. Do you want to chat? Have you ever had any writerly aspirations?” And so I said, “I’d love to talk.” And we met outside the reflecting pool at Lincoln Center during the Met season. And we talked for a little bit and I said, “You know, I’ve actually always wanted to write. I have a title already for the book.” It was like a real delusional “I’m ready, let’s do this” kind of thing.
She was like, “Okay, cool, simmer down. We’ll need to see some writing samples and then we’ll take it from there.” And so what I did was I asked my boss, Kevin McKenzie, to forego performing in The Nutcracker in—gosh, what was that? December of 2019, I think. And I went up to my friend’s house in upstate New York, and they were gone, and they had just bought it and the heat wasn’t on and I was just freezing, there was a blizzard. I just had a heat dish and my computer and my notebooks. And I just banged out a couple essays and brought them back to the editor. She enjoyed them. She said, “Let’s set you up with an agent.” And I built out the proposal with my agent and it was bought by Penguin Random House. And now I am publishing a book.
Margaret Fuhrer:
And now you’re about to be a published author. So you had a real writer’s retreat—I mean, like an intense one too. I feel like I’ve heard stories about writers doing that kind of self-isolation in those extreme conditions. Did those essays that you wrote, did they end up in the finished book?
James Whiteside:
Yeah, many of them did. Not all of them. I have a bunch that were cut for length and some that were just good old-fashioned not good.
I don’t know, people always ask me, “Oh, do you have a ghost writer for this?” And I’m like, “No, I wanted to write it myself, so that if it’s garbage, it’s my fault.” And yeah, I loved going upstate and just retreating into my memory—it was fun, and creative. I refer to it as an almost-memoir because it also has elements of fantasy in it. It’s very strange. And there are tangents, let me say.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Who did you sort of turn to for advice as you were writing the book, and what was the process like more generally for you as you got going? Did you see—this is sort of a clichéd question for dancers who are writing, but did you see parallels between work as a dancer and work as a writer, or were they two separate universes?
James Whiteside:
A schedule is really important for me. So I kept a really strict writing schedule. I would wake up, make some coffee, sit down and just write until I was hungry, which ended up being around 9:30 or 10. And then I would make breakfast, get back to the computer, right until lunch. I would break for lunch and watch a sort of pretty mindless television show. I often turn to the nineties cartoon “Gargoyles,” which aired on the Disney channel. I love that show and I think it’s brilliant. And it was a great mind cleanse for me, and also kept me in that nostalgic space. And I would make some more coffee and I would sit down and write until dinner time. And then I would make a drink and call it a night.
For advice, I turned a lot to my editor, Gretchen Schmid, from Penguin. And then I actually—I called Isaac Mizrahi, who is a big ballet supporter and collaborator, especially with Mark Morris. And I just find him very inspiring as a creator and a businessman. So I called him and I said, “Hey, what are some pitfalls here? What should I be afraid of? How should I be approaching this in an artistic sense?” And he was really helpful in making sure that I would be confident in telling my story and not worrying what other people thought of my story. It’s my experience. These are all my experiences, and if you don’t like it, then that’s your experience.
Margaret Fuhrer:
He has a great memoir, too.
James Whiteside:
Yeah, yes.
Margaret Fuhrer:
It’s funny, because I think a lot of writers, what they find most difficult about writing is the discipline. But that’s one thing that dancers, and especially ballet dancers, have down. That part, we’ve got figured out.
James Whiteside:
Absolutely.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I think a lot of people feel like they know you because you’re very real and very candid on social media. But what does this book reveal that might genuinely surprise people, even people who consider themselves James Whiteside diehards?
James Whiteside:
Gosh, I mean the book is very much inside my brain. It’s not a recollection of events as much as the feelings I’ve had for my whole life about various things. I’m not a hero in the book. I am often unlikable and make of that what you will, but the book is not a celebration. It’s a series of feelings.
Margaret Fuhrer:
The dancer memoir genre includes a whole lot of gems—there are some great dance memoirs out there. It sounds like this is pretty much a departure from that type of book. But were there other literary models that you followed, or other books that you admired that you wanted to emulate as you were writing? Or is this just totally its own thing?
James Whiteside:
My dream is that it is its own thing, but I used three books to sort of inform the structure, and almost like a mood board. And the three books were Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll, Roald Dahl’s Boy, which is a collection of stories about his childhood, and David Sedaris’ Calypso.
Margaret Fuhrer:
That is quite a range.
James Whiteside:
Yeah. So I wanted the humor, the, I don’t know, the real life reference of a David Sedaris collection. I wanted the art and whimsy of either John Tenniel’s illustrations or Roald Dahl’s illustrations. We’ll get back to illustrations at some point because my book also has illustrations. And yeah, just the sort of absurdist nonsense quality of Lewis Carroll.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, eclecticism, a little bit of everything. Gosh, Boy terrified me when I was a kid reading that book. I mean, it sticks with you, the way that it’s written, the vividness of it.
James Whiteside:
Yeah. I mean, Roald Dahl is such a gem. I think the way the illustration serve the text is just absolute perfection. There’s so much wit involved. It’s really brilliant.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well, let’s talk about the illustrations in your book, because I don’t know as much about them. How’d that all come to be?
James Whiteside:
So I knew I wanted an illustrator because I just couldn’t fathom having all these very visual tales told without any sort of visual component. I am a huge cartoon fan. I adore the art. I adore the stories. I adore the creativity, the history, the legacy. So I was thinking to myself, okay, I am not a good enough artist to be doing these myself. And there’s a show on TV now that I’m a huge fan of called “Rick and Morty,” a great sci-fi comedy animated television show. And a friend of mine, Garen Scribner, who is a former dancer with San Francisco Ballet and now a fabulous producer, he was a Broadway star, et cetera—I was talking to him about it and he said, I really want to introduce you to, I think it’s his cousin, his name is Teddy O’Connor and he’s the storyboard artist for “Rick and Morty.” So I was like, “Oh my God, that is so serendipitous. I have just been watching that show over and over and I just think it’s brilliant. Yes, of course. A thousand times yes.” So he set us up, and we had a couple of meetings, because I was actually developing—completely separate from this book, I was writing a pilot for a ballet company sitcom which maybe will see the light someday. I think it’s hilarious, but I haven’t actually shared it with anyone really.
But anyway, he and I spoke about that for a little bit. And then when the book deal really started solidifying, I was thinking to myself, this is the person who has to do with the illustrations. And so I went back and forth with the publisher, and they sent me all these in-house publishers that they’re really proud of and that are fabulous. And I knew—I was like, this is not the mood. I need this sort of grotesque…like when I think of John Tenniel’s work in Alice in Wonderland, it’s sort of disgusting. And I needed that, because the stories that I’m telling are quite disgusting at times. They’re laden with failure and sort of like bad choices—and also triumph, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. But I just knew Teddy was the person to do it. He’s really busy working, but we worked it out and made it happen. And I’m really, really proud of the work he did on the book.
Margaret Fuhrer:
That touch of the grotesque—sorry, I keep bringing it back to Roald Dahl, because I was obsessed the Roald Dahl growing up—it’s the same thing with his illustrator. It’s that same sense of, like, that borderline between, “this is hilarious” and “this is disgusting.” This is exactly what it feels like.
James Whiteside:
Exactly. It is the human experience with a pen to paper. It’s beautiful and just hideous.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Can you say any more about this ballet company sitcom that you’re thinking about?
James Whiteside:
Oh, absolutely. Oh gosh. I mean, I think it’s very funny. It’s about a group of friends, go figure, in a ballet company, and they’re struggling to make it in New York City. The ballet company is called The Ballet Company. It’s very on the nose. It’s a laugh-track sitcom. There are only five settings in the whole show. It’s like, stage left is one of the settings. The dressing room is one of the settings. The cafeteria, the Met cafeteria, is one of the settings. Fiorello’s is a setting. So I think it’s a great little glimpse into the absurdity of my world.
And something I wanted to do with it was have no visible dancing. So the whole show is about a ballet company, and all the dancing occurs off screen. So you’re on stage left, you don’t see the stage, but they’re talking about what’s happening on stage. In between the entrances, injuries happen, et cetera. But it doesn’t have to be led by dancers. It can be proper comedians.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I love that. I love that, because ballet is hilarious, and nobody ever talks about that. All we see are dancers—
James Whiteside:
It’s a ridiculous world, ridiculous.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yes! But we just see dancers who are starving themselves to death or want to kill themselves or are otherwise enmeshed in some kind of crazy drama that doesn’t reflect most dancers’ realities at all.
James Whiteside:
Exactly. It’s overly serious. I mean, people are serious about their art, but not about themselves generally.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Actually that leads right into the next question that I have for you. Which is about…I think some of ballet’s problems, and this includes the way that it’s portrayed elsewhere in media, they stem from this idea that it’s high art, that it must always be approached with seriousness from every angle. And as you’re saying, I mean, you obviously take your job seriously, but you never take yourself seriously. And I think that’s part of why people relate to you. But so how do you think the larger ballet community can go about, like, de-stuff-ifying ballet, demystifying it? And why is that important?
James Whiteside:
I don’t really have the answer to that. I think there’s no hard slam into demystifying ballet. I think the mystique is part of its allure, and this sort of perceived seriousness gives it this air of importance, which perhaps it doesn’t actually have.
I don’t know, for myself, that just doesn’t work. I can’t buy into it. I see it for what it is. I adore art, I am an artist, I absolutely relate to the life of an artist, but I can’t buy into the whole performative seriousness. I don’t think it’s going to change overnight. I think it’s going to just take sort of cultural time shift. I don’t have the answer to that.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And it’s not your job to have the answer to that. You’re the one doing the dancing.
So I want to talk about these three different characters that you inhabit. You have ABT dancer James Whiteside, pop star JbDubs, drag artist Ühu Betch—I’m actually realizing, as I’m saying that, that I just fell into like “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” cadence, which, maybe that’s kind of appropriate, that’s your holy trinity. But so, how do each of those personae speak to different parts of your authentic self, and how are they all connected to each other?
James Whiteside:
I mean, they’re all stemming from the same sort of creative wellspring. I created my alter egos to fill a creative void. I mean, I talk about this at length in the book, but I play a straight man on stage, period. And I needed a way to gay up my creative lif. And I chose a drag queen and a pop singer. And it was natural, I didn’t think about it. I didn’t think anyone would ever care to know about them, or look at them, or listen to JbDubs’ music, or watch a video, or go to a drag show. But they were something that I deeply, deeply needed.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. It’s interesting because you said I play straight men on stage, period, which has historically been true, and yet we’re starting to see a little bit of a shift there. And I know that ABT has roots in tradition, and sometimes it takes a little longer to sort of evolve on these fronts, but it does seem like there’s an evolution happening in ballet where there’s a growing movement to rethink the gendered aspects of ballet technique itself. And you do have this interesting perspective on all that as someone who is playing with gender in various aspects of your creative life, while also playing these hetero princes on stage. Can you talk a little bit more about how you sort of navigate all of that, and how you think about ballet’s cultural and technical relationship to gender?
James Whiteside:
I support evolution in art fields. This makes sense. Why would we do the same thing forever? I also support honoring legacy, and the morphing of what was always. And for me, I just essentially liked to play. So this sort of curiosity serves me quite well because I can express myself and not be ashamed. I have gotten to… It’s so weird. When I first started doing all of these self-expression projects, it was met with wariness and “oh, that’s inappropriate, that’s strange.”
Margaret Fuhrer:
Wariness from your bosses at ballet companies, or from what direction?
James Whiteside:
From peers, friends, patrons, you name it. And it was never very direct, but I could feel it. And then you do something for long enough and it becomes sort of this celebrated thing. It’s so weird to me. I’m like, well, where was this 15 years ago? So, note to everybody, if someone’s expressing themselves, don’t sh*t on them. Pardon my French.
Margaret Fuhrer:
That’s the pull quote.
James Whiteside:
Yeah. I don’t really know where ballet is headed, but I do appreciate people’s willingness to explore.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And I feel like there’s a narrative that is a little bit troubling here, but it’s also encouraging: this idea that the next generation coming up in ballet specifically seems to have a much more open and fluid conception of all of these ideas—anything related to gender, anything related to the technical aspects of ballet as it involves gender. And yeah, I guess there’s a sense of hope there, of, things are getting better, and partly just because people are thinking about them differently. But at the same time, we can’t just say, well, the next generation is going to fix everything.
You started to answer this question already , but I’m wondering what you think are the most important things that need to be done to build new and younger and more diverse audiences for ballet. Because, if we don’t, it’s pretty clearly in trouble. And it seems like something that you are personally invested in.
James Whiteside:
Well, I can talk about what I am doing personally to help with this. And this is one of my favorite ways to use social media, is to get people interested in ballet. I love to see the sort of cross section of people that follow me. It’s a really, really wide range of people. And I think that’s so freaking awesome. It makes me so happy, because a lot of these people aren’t dancers. It’s not just ballet students. So that is something that I want to do, to try and get people to translate their followership to getting their butts in the seats. And I’m not quite sure how to do that yet, but it’s something that’s on my mind.
And I think the more we accept change into our world as ballet dancers, the more relevant our work will be. I mean, I’m not talking about ticking off social issues in a dance; I’m talking about genuine representations of the world we’re living in, in beautiful, artful ways. We can do that, and we must.
Margaret Fuhrer:
I want to apologize kind of on behalf of all journalists for asking you these questions that it’s not your job to answer—like, “how do we fix ballet and how are you personally doing that?”
James Whiteside:
Yeah, I don’t know, and I accept your apology. [laughter] And I do feel that from many interviewers that I have spoken with, and I don’t have the answers, and I will never have the answers. I’m doing the best I can.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. You’re doing more than your part.
It actually seems like in some ways you’ve been more visible than usual during the pandemic, which is a funny thing to say. How have you coped with this weird and obviously difficult, but also in some ways enlightening, year? What has it reveal to you or helped you figure out about yourself and your relationship with dance?
James Whiteside:
I mean, it felt like a catalyst for me. A very dangerous catalyst. It was—
Margaret Fuhrer:
Dangerous?
James Whiteside:
Just from a health standpoint, it was—
Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, like literally dangerous!
James Whiteside:
Literally dangerous. I was fearing not only for my own health, but for my loved ones and family and friends, blah, blah, blah. So that’s a little edge that I felt for a very long time. But it also sort of just revealed to me the type of person that I am, I guess.
And that visibility came out of just a sheer need to do something. I do not like to sit still. I want to make things all the time. So, a pandemic happens, and you finish writing a book. That was my catharsis. That was my way to handle, I’m not on stage, I am going through a breakup, I am unable to do just about everything I love doing in New York City, I’m unable to visit family and friends, I’m unable to travel, I’m unable to tour and perform for these incredible audiences all over the place. These are all things that bring me peace. And these outlets that I find are things that fill up my tank and make me feel better, essentially.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Did you find a different kind of peace through writing? How did it fulfill you?
James Whiteside:
Gosh. I didn’t feel like I was writing a book, per se. I felt like I was just sitting down talking to myself a little bit. And I didn’t write it thinking anyone would read it, in a way. I didn’t know if it would end up ever released. I don’t know. It was a strange sensation that I enjoyed very much, but it also revealed some darkness, I suppose. Yeah, a bit of a sad clown situation.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Oh, say more about that.
James Whiteside:
Like the Judy Garlands of the world, these happy-go-lucky figures who are just kicking and twirling, but there’s a little bit more going on in there than one might know. And as I sat down to write a fricking book, I was like, oh, there’s some sh*t in here.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Writing as therapy.
James Whiteside:
Yeah, it felt great.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. You said you had aspirations even before this opportunity arose to write. Do you see other writing projects in your future?
James Whiteside:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if the opportunity presents itself, I will absolutely continue writing. I’d love to try my hand at fiction. I’d love to try my hand at television or theater. I am very curious, very excited, and I’m ready to try again.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Well, you’ve already been back on some stages, but hopefully we’ll see you back on the major stages soon. What aspects of the return to live performance are you most looking forward to—what have you missed most?
James Whiteside:
The performance itself is my favorite part of everything I do. The exchange of energy with an audience, the ephemeral nature of the art form, the event—it just feels like an event. And that’s something I need, and I love it. The music, lights, costumes, glamor—give it to me!
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. That event quality, especially in ballet, that’s part of the mystique that we should never do away with. Because you’re right—that, like, “we’re putting on a show!”—that is so intrinsic to the appeal.
James Whiteside:
It’s showbiz. It is art. It is show biz. I am a huge showbiz fan. I believe in it. I think art can be showbiz and vice-versa—dance, ballet, you name it. It’s showbiz, baby.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. Is The Stage Rightside coming back?
James Whiteside:
Oh, I’m working on it. Stay tuned and yes, it’s coming back.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Is it just a matter of having people in a dressing room to talk to? [laughter]
James Whiteside:
I know. Well that is my favorite aspect of the show, is just having people backstage and sitting on the floor together of my Met dressing room and just chatting. It was so organic and lovely. And so yes, it’s coming back, but just stay tuned.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Okay. I know, Zoom is fine, but there’s nothing like that energy of sitting there with somebody else.
So finally, in addition to the book release, I know you have a ton of other projects in the works right now. Where should listeners go to keep up with everything you have going on?
James Whiteside:
Oh gosh, you can follow me on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter. My website is jamesbwhiteside.com. You really can’t miss me if you have an internet connection.
Margaret Fuhrer:
It’s one of the secrets to your success. Actually, I love that your TikTok account has been gaining some steam recently.
James Whiteside:
Yeah, I have two managers and they’re like, “You have to do TikTok more.” And I’m like, “I’m tired!” They’re like, “No, it’s great. It’s a thing, do it. It’ll help.” Because it’s good to show the children what ballet is all about, with a little wink and a nod.
Margaret Fuhrer:
Yeah. And it was kind of funny—it took a while for professional ballet dancers to gain a foothold in TikTok. I was glad that you were one of the first to do that.
James Whiteside:
Ballet TikTok is really fun and super funny. Yeah, Bella’s [Isabella Boylston] TikTok is amazing. Do you follow Bella on TikTok?
Margaret Fuhrer:
I do, yeah. I actually feel bad because I wrote a story about ballet TikTok, and I quoted this young dancer who said something that actually I thought was brilliant: she was like, “I’m not on TikTok to follow Isabella Boylston. Yeah, she’s incredible, she can do six pirouettes, but I see that on Instagram. I’m on TikTok for other stuff.” And I quoted that in the piece and then immediately was like, oh, poor Bella. I’m sorry. And of course she had a great sense of humor about it. I think she commented like, “Nope, not the first time I’ve gotten a bad review in the Times.” It was perfect. [laughter]
James Whiteside:
Oh, that’s amazing. I love that.
Margaret Fuhrer:
But yeah, it’s been really cool to see the professional ballet community enter this environment and how that’s all transpired.
James Whiteside:
Well, it’s hard to discern who’s a professional and who isn’t on social media. Unless you’re told, you just don’t know. I mean, I know, but the layman doesn’t.
Margaret Fuhrer:
The great equalizer. Well, James, thank you so much. We’ll be sure to link all of your various websites and accounts in the show notes. And we look forward to seeing you hopefully on stage sometime soon.
James Whiteside:
Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure and hope to talk to you again soon.
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So, since my conversation with James, we’ve found out that you will see him back on a Lincoln Center stage soon: ABT’s fall season will be at the David H. Koch Theater Oct 20-31. Catch him living his best life onstage if you can. And his book, Center Center, is out now! Right now! Go and get yourself a copy—all the relevant links are in the show notes.
Thanks for listening, everyone. Have a great weekend.